My fight to get my life back!

pebbles88

Hi peeps,

well had lovely letter from nastywest this morning re my default letter to them over my cca.

here is what they put

Regarding your recent letter concerning the banks alledged breach of the CCA act, i would advise you of the following :

Any request for a copy of an executed agreement under s78(1) states that the company must meet its statuary requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product. These copies shouldl be accompanied by the statement of financial information relating to the account.

The provision of the the 'true copy' in this form is made in reliance of regulations 3(2) and 7 (1)(b) of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the act for us to give a copy to a customer with a signature on it.

As we have supplied a copy of the credit agreement that you agreed to upon receipt of your credit card and signed it, copy of the original and current T&C's of that card product, with the prescribed terms, a most recent statement showing the outstanding balance and advised you who to contact to discuss amounts due and owing, and future payments that must be paid. We have therefore met our obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement and again we are satisfied that what was provided complied with the regulations expressly made for controlling what i a 'true copy'.

if you are unhappy with the timeframe in which that documents were received then please the matter to the attention of any legal redress open to you

i suggest that you take advice from your local CAB or similar if you continue to doubt the veracity of what we have told you abou our having complied with out obligations under s78(1)

I must therefore inform you that we see no reason to enter into further correspondence with you about the alledged CCA breaches you lay at our door. If you are not satisfied with this response, you may seek whatever legal redress open to you.

we do not consider this account to be in dispute or void and your indebtedness on this account remains due and payable and we will be pursuing for the full replayment. Any non payment of the account will be recorded on your credit file as willa default if non payment continues.

I sent another lett yest informing that without the signed agreement they cannot sned details to any 3rd parties.. but i feel sick now. are they right, or are they still trying to scare me?? PLease help someone

ps, i have contacted trading standards, just waiting for them to get back to me

GeorgeUK

Hi Pebbles, did your letter mention the OFT's determination that a conjectured reconstruction is not deemed to be a copy (post 84)?

If you have charges that you need to claim back, you could send a SAR and also request a copy of the CCA. This copy will need to be an exact copy complete with signatures. I'm not sure how to argue the point that the charges referred to in the agreement are incorrect and would have been altered after the original agreement was made. I think the only way you can settle this once and for all is to send the SAR (cost £10).

Here's one i am trying to get my brother to send. It's worth reading the comments rory makes in the thread as he is a bit of an expert in this regard. It might be worth posting a query about the £12 penalty charges appearing on the CCA overe there, but i think the only way you will get this settled once and for all is by sending a SAR.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/scotland/184976-loan-charges-enforcability.html#post2000059

fatbelly

Hi Pebbles

I believe they are correct in saying that they have met their obligations under s78(1). However, under s61(1)(a) a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under s60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

Under s65(1) an improperly executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor on an order of the court only. Under s127(3) the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) if s61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with, unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with the regulations under s60(1) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement) was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

So unless they can produce a signed agreement, they have failed to comply with the requirements of s61, the regulated agreement is improperly executed under s127(3) and it cannot be enforced by the court.

If they disagree with the assertion, then they must take court action to resolve the issue.

Anyone got a standard letter that sets all that out?

pebbles88

GeorgeUK wrote: »

Hi Pebbles, did your letter mention the OFT's determination that a conjectured reconstruction is not deemed to be a copy (post 84)?

If you have charges that you need to claim back, you could send a SAR and also request a copy of the CCA. This copy will need to be an exact copy complete with signatures. I'm not sure how to argue the point that the charges referred to in the agreement are incorrect and would have been altered after the original agreement was made. I think the only way you can settle this once and for all is to send the SAR (cost £10).

Here's one i am trying to get my brother to send. It's worth reading the comments rory makes in the thread as he is a bit of an expert in this regard. It might be worth posting a query about the £12 penalty charges appearing on the CCA overe there, but i think the only way you will get this settled once and for all is by sending a SAR.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/scotland/184976-loan-charges-enforcability.html#post2000059

Hiya,

I have just this moment printed out an SAR letter to send to them.

I dont have any charges to claim back just yet, if they play ball and put my a/c back to when they shouldbe sent me the CCA by then they will be wiped off anyway.

fatbelly wrote: »

Hi Pebbles

I believe they are correct in saying that they have met their obligations under s78(1). However, under s61(1)(a) a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under s60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

Under s65(1) an improperly executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor on an order of the court only. Under s127(3) the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) if s61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with, unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with the regulations under s60(1) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement) was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

So unless they can produce a signed agreement, they have failed to comply with the requirements of s61, the regulated agreement is improperly executed under s127(3) and it cannot be enforced by the court.

If they disagree with the assertion, then they must take court action to resolve the issue.

Anyone got a standard letter that sets all that out?

Crikey, my tongue is tied trying to pronounce all of those s'ss!
You two have been utterly wonderful in helping me with this. I hope Karma brings you lots of lovely things in life. :T :T


Yes the letter from the 16th mentioned about not being a conjectured reconstruction, they just seem to have ignored it!. I will wait with baited breath to see if anyone has a letter already set out, i will admit my english is not always the best.

Many Thanks again you guys. :beer: :beer:

ps, if yuo dont mind, im gonna post this reply also on the cca forum, as people are having a few letters similar on there.

pebbles88

ok, how is this for a letter. as i said im not the best at writing them!!


Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 28/2/2009 the contents of which are noted.
I would like to point out a few facts though. As I have already told you in a previous letter dated the 16/2/2009:

The Office of Fair Trading states that

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided.
However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original.

When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.
In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

So, you are indeed correct in saying that you have fulfilled your obligation for my s78(1) request.

However, under s61(1)(a) a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under s60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

Under s65 (1) an improperly executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor on an order of the court only. Under s127 (3) the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65 (1) if s61 (1) (a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with, unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with the regulations under s60(1) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement) was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

So unless you can produce a signed agreement, you have failed to comply with the requirements of s61, the regulated agreement is improperly executed under s127(3) and it cannot be enforced by the court.

If you disagree with the assertion, then you must take court action to resolve the issue.


So as already mentioned, you had until 11/2/2009 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor are I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).


To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 11/2/2009 and subsequently will have committed a criminal offence on the 14/3/2009.

I have reported this matter to Trading Standards.

Again, I have included all communication between our parties since my first letter to you on the 12/1/2009.

pebbles88

fatbelly wrote: »

Hi Pebbles

I believe they are correct in saying that they have met their obligations under s78(1). However, under s61(1)(a) a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under s60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner.

Under s65(1) an improperly executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor on an order of the court only. Under s127(3) the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) if s61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with, unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with the regulations under s60(1) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement) was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

So unless they can produce a signed agreement, they have failed to comply with the requirements of s61, the regulated agreement is improperly executed under s127(3) and it cannot be enforced by the court.

If they disagree with the assertion, then they must take court action to resolve the issue.

Anyone got a standard letter that sets all that out?

any thoughts on a standard letter my lovlies??

GeorgeUK

Sorry Pebbles, but i think you may be jumping the gun a bit with that letter.

In meeting the request under s77/78 of the CCA74, they do not need to provide the signatures with any copy. This was altered in the 1983 regulations. If they take this to court, then they do need to provide a copy of the original agreement, complete with signatures, but not as part of a CCA request under sections 77/78. You could argue section 127 in court, but i don't think it will have any mearing on a basic CCA request if signatures have not been provided.

That's why i suggested sending the subject access request. They would need to provide a copy with signatures under the Data Protection Act. Then you will be able to see what they may present to the court as evidence of an agreement.
(This is for the Natwest CCA isn't it?)

pebbles88

GeorgeUK wrote: »

Sorry Pebbles, but i think you may be jumping the gun a bit with that letter.

In meeting the request under s77/78 of the CCA74, they do not need to provide the signatures with any copy. This was altered in the 1983 regulations. If they take this to court, then they do need to provide a copy of the original agreement, complete with signatures, but not as part of a CCA request under sections 77/78. You could argue section 127 in court, but i don't think it will have any mearing on a basic CCA request if signatures have not been provided.

That's why i suggested sending the subject access request. They would need to provide a copy with signatures under the Data Protection Act. Then you will be able to see what they may present to the court as evidence of an agreement.
(This is for the Natwest CCA isn't it?)

Hiya,

I havent sent the letter, was just venting some steam! just so annoyed with them. i thought halifax were being morons but even they have agreed to help me now!

I sent the SAR couple of days ago, so until they get back to me with that i will just continue to make token payments, I havent got any money to do anything else really!:o

im just worried as they get 40 days to comply with that... the way they are going they will have me in court before then. Im so scared i feel sick, i dont know what else i can do. and yes it is the natwest cca.

GeorgeUK

Did the SAR specify you required a copy of the original credit agreement as well as a copy of any transactions so you can reclaim charges?

If you do go to court, the judge will see that you have been making payments and that you cannot afford any more. Just imagine them being awarded a CCJ that means you pay £1 per month until the debt is paid off. Is that 700 odd years?

pebbles88

Hi,

this is what i requested in my SAR:

I would be grateful if you would provide the following for the above account that I hold with your organisation:

1. Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same.
2. A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to the above account with your organisation.
3. Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contacts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.
4. Full copies or transcripts of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organization or third party which contains my personal or financial, or which pertains to me.
5. Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.
6. Full hard copy print outs of my personal or financial information, held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations.
7. Underwriting sheet or other such document recording any commission (or other) payment made to an intermediary or packager, and/or payment/commission from the insurer in relation to my account.