Seeking advice

Horace

Thomask wrote: »

Hi

I've only recently started driving in the UK where the road rules are very different compared with back home in New Zealand.

I recently carried out a job for a company which involved driving a large rental van.

The agency phoned me today to advise me they had received 2 Penalty Charge Notices for the same offence. Both offences occurred within 24 hours of one another on the same stretch of road.

The Penalty Charge Notices, issued by the Islington Council, were for the following alleged contravention:

32JP Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign.

It goes on to state the alleged contravention was noted by a CCTV camera operator who was 'observing real time pictures from a roadside camera at the time stated'.

As mentioned, the road markings back home are very different. From the photographic evidence I see they are referring to a road near my house broken up by 2 individual islands, both forming part of a large diamond shape painted onto the road. The diamond is filled with diagonal lines.
On both occasions I have driven down the centre of the road, between both islands. In complete honestly I thought this was the correct thing to do as a space had been left large enough for the van to get through. The van would not physically fit down either side of the islands. In addition there is a sign in the shape of a circle giving measurements which I assumed were to use to determine whether your vehicle could get through the sides. I also had no idea what the diamond shape and diagonal lines referred to.

I'm really upset as both fines are £120.00 each (or £60.00 at the reduced rate) and I made a genuine honest mistake (yet still don't understand how vans the size of mine are meant to get through).

How am I best to appeal these charges?

Am I best to appeal based on mitigating circumstances taking the following into account:

- First offence in that council's boundary. The offences occurred due to a change in my country of residence and not fully understanding the new road markings. In addition, the second offense occured due to having only just recieved notification that the first time I had done it was also wrong.

- I am a law abiding citizen and made an honest mistake and are now fully aware of the driving restrictions. What adds weight to this point is the fact the same offence was committed twice within 24 hours on the same stretch of road!


Or should I appeal due to the following:

There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority:

- Both tickets claim the fine will be reduced if paid within 14 days. Both offences were caught on CCTV and the tickets posted therefore from reading Martin's guide it appears for a offence caught on CCTV and posted it must read that the fine will be reduced if paid within '21' days, not '14'. Is this correct?



Can I appeal under both these headings?

Am I best to appeal on 2 separate letters or keep the case as 1?

Is it worth taking photos?

The company I worked for rented the van from a rental agency. The tickets clearly state 'you are legally responsible for dealing with this notice. Do not pass it onto the driver'. The van was rented in the company's name and address. What's interesting is both tickets have my name attached yet on the second ticket my surname is spelt incorrectly. Is it likely the company passed on my details to the council or can rental firm? Who is ultimately liable and responsible for ensuring these fines are paid? Both tickets have the address of the company.

As these tickets were sent by post am I correct in saying the appeal process would begin at the 'formal appeal' stage rather than the 'informal appeal stage'. I don't want to lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate if I'm unsuccessful along the line.

Finally, the address given on the ticket is a PO Box address. Can letters be sent by recorded delivery to PO Box addresses?

Thank you very much for reading this and any suggestions would be of great help.

Well failing to drive in the direction of the arrow probably means that you drove down a street the wrong way. Cross hatched boxes can only be entered if turning right and in the case of the photograph shown - then you cannot enter this box, you have to go down the side where the car is. Should you have started to drive in the UK if you are not aware of our highway code?

Islington Council as with other London Boroughs are stinkers when it comes to their PCNs. Ask the agency why you have been contacted when it clearly states on the PCN that it is the company's responsiblity to pay the fine.

The PO Box is one that is used by Islington and probably other Boroughs too (don't quote me on that because I cannot actually read the ticket properly) - what normally happens (I have no experience of being a company driver so I don't know on that score) is that you write a letter of appeal - as its two tickets then I would write two letters because that is how these councils deal with such matters as they can't seem to cope if you appeal more than one ticket in the same letter. No need to send it recorded delivery either - it gets there OK (its guaranteed that this item of post always gets through). Refer to an alleged offence - don't admit it. What happens then is that Islington will come back to you - they may just say that they disallow the appeal and in that case you appeal to PATAS (Parking & Traffic Appeals Tribunal Service) as they deal with all parking hearings in the London area. You will be called then to a heaing where you put your case and they will put their case - this hearing takes place at PATAS which is located in New Zealand House in London (I think, this is your embassy building
but I am not sure )

HTH - btw I know about the London Boroughs because I have successfully taken London Borough of Lambeth to PATAS for issuing fraudulent tickets, illegal towings and clampings and I have had all but one of my tickets overturned by PATAS and Lambeth have been forced to reimburse me. The one that they didnt overturn was one that I had paid under duress whilst I was ill following eye surgery - I am still battling to get that money back despite Lambeth promising that they would refund it, it is now in the hands of the Local Government Ombudsman. Any problems, feel free to PM me.

real1314

I'm guessing that the photos are the actual photos of your offence?

In which case, you're pretty much bang to rights on committing an offence.

The Blue circles with an angled arrow show which side of the bollard a vehicle can use -i.e the width restricted bit.
The whole idea is to prevent larger vehilces from using that road. You have driven across an area that is not a roadway for vehicles, hence it is marked off by the diagonal lines.

Neil_B

Horace wrote: »

The PO Box is one that is used by Islington and probably other Boroughs too (don't quote me on that because I cannot actually read the ticket properly) - what normally happens (I have no experience of being a company driver so I don't know on that score) is that you write a letter of appeal - as its two tickets then I would write two letters because that is how these councils deal with such matters as they can't seem to cope if you appeal more than one ticket in the same letter. No need to send it recorded delivery either - it gets there OK (its guaranteed that this item of post always gets through). Refer to an alleged offence - don't admit it. What happens then is that Islington will come back to you - they may just say that they disallow the appeal and in that case you appeal to PATAS (Parking & Traffic Appeals Tribunal Service) as they deal with all parking hearings in the London area. You will be called then to a heaing where you put your case and they will put their case - this hearing takes place at PATAS which is located in New Zealand House in London (I think, this is your embassy building
but I am not sure )

All very well but on what grounds are you suggesting he appeal?

tinkerbell84

I'd suggest you stop driving immediately until you are familiar with the UK Highway Code.

The gap between the bollards is for emergency vehicles only. As your van won't fit between the narrowings on the left and right of the road, you can't drive your van down there!

Don't think you have any hope whatsoever of getting away without paying those tickets.

:rolleyes:

Neil_B

tinkerbell84 wrote: »

Don't think you have any hope whatsoever of getting away without paying those tickets.

:rolleyes:

Wow what a forum!

One minute someone tells him to appeal without suggesting a reason and the next someone tells him to give up before we have the whole picture?

You are quite right to say that he should obey the laws of the road.

Likewise, Islington have to comply with the very law they are quoting. They don't.
There are four legal errors on the PCN and another contentious issue that could be considered an obstruction.
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Crabman

tinkerbell84 wrote: »

Don't think you have any hope whatsoever of getting away without paying those tickets.

:rolleyes:

Really? What if the PCN doesn't conform?

Neil_B

Crabman wrote: »

Really? What if the PCN doesn't conform

See PM. and as the forum software is telling me this message is too short i 'll just mention that the forum software is telling me the mes

---

LOL

Conor_3

Christ almighty Thomsask, if the blue arrows and the great big white lines weren't enough of a clue, are you sure you're intelligent enough to be driving at all? Surely you don't go driving over such road markings in NZ?

Thomask

Neil_B wrote: »

You're not easy to work with!

Did you think to look back at your posts and see if the images were readable?

I don't understand - if you have them on the PC already then why can you not simply host them on tinypic and post the direct IMG links as I said?

You will need to convert to jpeg and I'm an IT numpty so can't tell you how to do that.
-

Hi Neil

The fines were sent to me by PDF through email. I copied the screen shots of the PDF files to Paint and uploaded the screen shots from there. I'm not yet in physical posession of the paper tickets.

Thomask

Crabman wrote: »

Hi Thomas, how did you get the images into a PDF? Do you have the raw jpg image files?

If so, I suggest you have a read of sra's guide to Posting Pictures to get those uploaded and online as we need to be able to see the wording. Sometimes tinypic can resize images so if you can read the text on your computer it's possible tinypic has reduced it, try flickr which retains the original sizes and resolutions.

If you need further help with the pictures, it'd be best if you posted on the Techie Board for help and advice.

Hi Crabman, just have them in PDF format

Real1314: Yes, photos are of actual offenses

Neil: What are the legal errors you\'ve spotted?

Thanks