Seeking advice

Neil_B

sturll wrote: »

Fair enough.
Given that this driver has passed his driving test and is supposedly a professional driver. Is it ok for him to drive in a manner which is dangerous and in contravention of the laws of the road potentially causing serious injury to himself or others?

I think not.

I agree completely actually.

Whether such comments have a place on this forum is more the point for me. I'm used to assisting on a forum where such is not allowed. Oh we often comment such things but only when we then move on to help. We draw the line at outright dishonesty, perverting the course of justice, etc.

I agree those pics look damning. Given what he said though he might honestly have believed that it was only a traffic calming measure (cos we have them too) and was in fact the route for larger vehicles. I'm fairly sure we can be confident that he has learnt from his mistake and will be doing some research (do forgive me for still having faith in humankind!).

Interesting example. If he had been stopped by the Police for the 'offence', as it then would have been, they would have adopted an entirely different approach that you may probably favour. A fixed penalty notice of £60 and 3 points - OR, in many cases, the option of attending a driver awareness course at a cost to him of £80+ but no points put on his licence.
I'm pretty sure you'll agree that is a far better idea?

Nope, instead we have a large LA imposing a penalty, using non-compliant documents and only really interested in the dosh!

Personally, I find it greatly disturbing that Councils are unable to understand what are fairly basic legal requirements and all spelt out for them. In many cases it is just a matter of Copy & Paste but they still balls it up!
Moreover, that when challeged they blatantly deny these things in order to obtain payment - BUT - very frequently when challenged further, will back down. Many Councils are known for dropping out of hearings at the very last minute (3 days) when appellants have often waited 2 months or so for the opportunity. The PATAS annual report comments on this practice!

It is our money they are wasting! Why? Job creation, incompetence, inefficient working culture? Don't know - but I'll continue doing what I can to change it.

Going back to 'driving'. Yeah i've been driving a while (cough) but I can't claim to know all the rules - can you - honestly?

As an example. For a large van like his, what speed limits apply and on what roads? Moreover, what percentage of drivers of vans are aware of this.
I drove vans for a few years and was never aware until this year! - and never informed when driving Company or hire vehicles!

Very close to my home is a bus lane. It creates a chicane. The chicane is not effective when the bus lane is not operational but continues to be a hazard - why? - less than 5% of drivers take any notice of the bus lane times, including many driving instructors! So are we any better?
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Thomask

Dear x

Re: reference number

I have been in recent receipt of 2 penalty charge notices.
(The penalty charge is 32JP: failing to drive in the direction indicated by the arrow and noted by a CCTV camera operator).

Both notices were issued within 24 hours and related to the same offence on the same stretch of road.

Although I am a British citizen, I have only been back in the UK for 12
months having grown up in New Zealand.

I recently carried out a job for a company and had to use a large rental van.

Although fundamental driving is very similar in both countries, the road markings in England are at considerable variance with those in NZ.

From the photographic evidence, I understand that the penalty relates to a road (Englefield Rd N1 ) which is broken up by two individual “islands” both forming part of a large diamond shape painted onto the road. This shape is filled with diagonal lines. I could not interpret the meaning of this road marking.
My honest understanding was that this was the correct procedure as the space was of an appropriate size for a van to pass through. To have attempted to drive to the left of the islands would have prohibited the passage of the vehicle. Further compounding this innocent misunderstanding, is the existence of measurements on a circular sign which I assumed were to assist the driver to determine whether the vehicle could pass through.

I am very concerned as the fines are very high and I feel my confusion was very understandable; there was no component of carelessness, nor intent to flout the road rules of which I am always respectful.

I would be very appreciative if you could let me know how best I could appeal these penalties.

I am a law abiding citizen and this is a first offence and arose from a lack of familiarity with the road markings. That I made the infringement twice in 24 hours I feel corroborates my expressed lack of familiarity about the meaning of the markings.

Your consideration of this matter would be respectfully appreciated.

Yours sincerely

Conor_3

Thomask wrote: »

Dear x

Although I am a British citizen, I have only been back in the UK for 12
months having grown up in New Zealand.

Utterly irrelevant.

Although fundamental driving is very similar in both countries, the road markings in England are at considerable variance with those in NZ.

Utterly irrelevant.

Neil_B

Thomas. As much as you think your point about being new to driving in this Country has some value - it will not get the PCNs cancelled.

You need to keep that part far shorter and be rather more meek about it. You can't 'reason' with Councils and especially so when your 'reason' is pretty poor to start with.

Remember it is just a distracting element that offers them a way out rather than having to admit their PCNs are invalid.

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You haven't pointed out the legal flaws at all?
To keep that simple, stick to the strongest one - that they fail to tell you the correct deadline for appeals, per LLA&TFL Schedule, Para 1, sub para (3).

You could just say something like 'amongst other legal flaws and contentious issues

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'

The point is, if you didn't get it yet, that if the PCN fails to comply with the relevant legislation then it is not enforceable. Many cases are won on these issues but you have to get it right - and at least include it.

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I've now managed to read the date on your PCN
Deadline for you to pay at discounted rate or to submit an appeal that might preserve the discount is 30/12/08.

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I can't tell you what to do and I never do. You have to decide whether the info I have given you is correct, whether you are capable of using and presenting it and whether you are prepared for the sometimes long and traumatic timescale before it is resolved.
That is just how the system works - unfortunately.

Thomask

Hi Neil

I've edited my draft as to not include info regarding the time spent driving in this country.

Have also sent you a PM.

Thomask

Hi Neil

Have sent you another PM.

Neil_B

Thomask wrote: »

Hi Neil

Have sent you another PM.

Noted and replied.

A couple of things.

You may need to get confirmation in writing from the agency/owner that your are aithorised to make the appeal.

You also need to consider the amount of money involved. You have told me you now have 3 so potentially you are fighting for £360-. (they might not extend the discount period).

Just an opinion - how will this go? Well i think they will most likely reject your reps. They may well tease you by re-offering the option to pay the discounted amount - or might not.

Once it is definitely at the full amount (and you won't know until they respond) then you have nothing to lose by proceeding to PATAS. in that event, what normally happens is that they string it out and then drop out just ahead of the hearing - because they always knew you were right.
Islington are not the worst by any means so we'll see what happens - BUT - as I said, be aware of the amount of money involved.

Thomask

Have replied to your PM (2 seperate messages).

Ta

Neil_B

Just to re-iterate Thomas. To submit your appeals will possibly risk the loss of the opportunity to pay at a discounted rate. I have said so in previous posts. Islington may well extend it as you have told me you are getting the appeals in inside the 14 days.

The thing is, whether they do or they don't, where do you go from there? This is the game. IMO it is a winnable case because an Adjudicator cannot allow a substantially non-compliant PCN to be enforced. Your problem will be whether you have the patience to pursue that. It certainly isn't an easy game!

Of general interest for everybody.
Statistics for cases that went to Adjudication 2007/8. Islington, moving traffic only.
Depending on how you read it (some confusion) either 72% succesful or 55% succesful.
Again depending how you read it, Islington failed to bother contesting either 21% or 16%.

boombap

In the 'evidence' pics is it completley clear that you're the driver?

An alternative option is to go back to NZ and hope they don't track you down

S.