Should Jaguar be bailed-out????

scooter100_2

Generali wrote: »

That's great and as I don't pay UK taxes any more it isn't really my problem.

Out if interest and with respect I ask the following questions:

Whose fault is it that Jaguar don't sell enough cars to make the business work?
Also, for how long should British taxpayers support Indian owned businesses?
Finally, should the UK Government receive a stake in the business and if so should it be equity or debt? Voting or non-voting?

Car sales in western europe were down %25 last month that is the problem.That isnt an individual companys fault but thats the economic situation we are in.
When the Japanese car companys arrived in this country they recieved grant aid to do so.This would now be illegal under european law.The same european law that would provide grant aid to any car manufacturer setting up shop in eastern europe.Probably the reason why 5 car plants have shut in this country since Labour came to power.Other countries support their manufacturing and in particular their domestic car companies for a reason.
If its a loan JLR get then presumably it would be non voting debt(if such a thing exists).Their are no easy answers here but the company being Indian is irrelevent.Its British workers jobs at stake.

Generali

scooter100 wrote: »

Car sales in western europe were down %25 last month that is the problem.That isnt an individual companys fault but thats the economic situation we are in.
When the Japanese car companys arrived in this country they recieved grant aid to do so.This would now be illegal under european law.The same european law that would provide grant aid to any car manufacturer setting up shop in eastern europe.Probably the reason why 5 car plants have shut in this country since Labour came to power.Other countries support their manufacturing and in particular their domestic car companies for a reason.
If its a loan JLR get then presumably it would be non voting debt(if such a thing exists).Their are no easy answers here but the company being Indian is irrelevent.Its British workers jobs at stake.

Debt usually only carries voting rights if the debtor defaults at which point in some way the lender in some way becomes part owner of the company.

I am very dubious about taxpayers' money being used to bail out private firms. Who benefits? Who carries the risk?

scooter100_2

Generali wrote: »

I am very dubious about taxpayers' money being used to bail out private firms. Who benefits? Who carries the risk?

Of course there shouldnt be a blank cheque for taxpayers money to bail out private companies,each should be on merit on a case by case basis.But i ask again , why does virtually every other country support their manufacturing industry and in particular their car companies.? Britain has lost 5 car plants in 10 years, over a million cars a year that are now built abroad instead.Germany and France have shut none.

cocktail

But i ask again , why does virtually every other country support their manufacturing industry and in particular their car companies.? Britain has lost 5 car plants in 10 years, over a million cars a year that are now built abroad instead.Germany and France have shut none.[/quote]

it is cheaper to build cars elsewhere,thats why.
i am not a big supporter of fuel inefficient cars but as far as this JLR case is concerned i agree that the loan amount would be in the general public interest ,reagrdless of whether the company is indian owned

scooter100_2

cocktail wrote: »

it is cheaper to build cars elsewhere,thats why.

Where exactly is it cheaper?

Zagu

I'd like to agree with you scooter, but there's simply too many factors that come into play to question the decision.

• Foreign owners who don't appear to be in immediate trouble makes me question Tata's commitment, and the cynical side of me thinks that we won't see the last of this if we bail it out now.

• I don't think that the car industry is in a particularly unique position anymore. Britain moved away from manufacturing many years ago.

• Their product range, while brilliant, is niche and will not fit into a recession hit market. Jaguar haven't made any money for years, and in the current climate, I can't see them doing so in the near future.

• The length and depth of the recession is unknown. By bailing out a company that looks far too much like dead wood at the start of the recession, we might limit opportunities to bail out companies with real hope later.

I think it's very difficult, but we should let market forces do their work in all but essential areas, as the private sector will either throw out a lifeline, or start from fresh to fill the void.



On a side note, part of me does have reservations to support an industry that dumped from a great hight on the government, and therefore the tax payer, a few decades ago.

scooter100_2

Zagu wrote: »

I think it's very difficult, but we should let market forces do their work in all but essential areas, as the private sector will either throw out a lifeline, or start from fresh to fill the void.

Quite accept that there will always be a solution from the private sector.But part of that solution will be that once the car factories are gone they are never coming back.At some point not having an industrial strategy in this country will inevitably lead to national banktuptcy.Britains current account deficit is not sustainable.Eventually if we make and export nothing then the country will simply run out of money and then it wont really matter how much money we print.

Zagu

scooter100 wrote: »

Quite accept that there will always be a solution from the private sector.But part of that solution will be that once the car factories are gone they are never coming back.

Sometime they do. Triumph have just started again too. Things go in cycles. At the moment, we have unrealistic wage demands, too much bureaucracy, and little need to manufacture cars because other countries do it so well. Raise the price of shipping cars from Japan, along with a pricey Euro, and a well educated Britain might look an attractive option again. I agree that it will be a bitter pill to swallow until we get there, but things do change, and being responsive and flexible to market demands is essential.

scooter100 wrote: »

At some point not having an industrial strategy in this country will inevitably lead to national banktuptcy.Britains current account deficit is not sustainable.Eventually if we make and export nothing then the country will simply run out of money and then it wont really matter how much money we print.

I agree with that, but I don't think large engined 4x4s will answer that call. I've never believed that banking can be a national industry, apart from in exceptional, and probably questionable, circumstances. What we need to do at the moment is survive. What we need to do when we get through this is find something sustainable.

ruggedtoast

Generali wrote: »

That's great and as I don't pay UK taxes any more it isn't really my problem.

Out if interest and with respect I ask the following questions:

Whose fault is it that Jaguar don't sell enough cars to make the business work?
Also, for how long should British taxpayers support Indian owned businesses?
Finally, should the UK Government receive a stake in the business and if so should it be equity or debt? Voting or non-voting?

Its a riddle from Generali -

1 - its the planets fault for failing to produce enough oil to support the motor industry. Gordo will be having words with it after repelling the tide tomorrow morning.

2. As there are only about 3 British owned business left we taxpayers better get used to bending over to foreign ones.

3. I wouldnt give the UK government a pop tart if it were starving. I recommend we outsource most governmental requirements to another more successful government. Its exactly what Labour have been telling us to do for years. Maybe Sweden could help?

geoffky

of course they should my land rover is due its first service.....