Virgin Trains are bunch of con artists IMHO. Be warned!

CynicAl_3

To the OP I would simply say, good luck! Your efforts to artificially enlarge Tricky Dicky's sphincter are to be applauded, although in terms of man hours the amount of time it's taking you to get any results will probably far outweigh the original sum lost! As the CEO of a diversified conglomerate with international links*, my approach to any such jobsworthiness is calculated on the basis of 'is it really worth it as I earn more in 5 minutes than you do in 10 years?' If that doesn't stack up (who am I trying to kid?), I shout a bit then threaten legal action under the Trades Descriptions Act, even though I have little idea what that means. Usually works though! :rotfl:

*Ok I'll come clean...I have a contract gardening company and do freelance copywriting in Milan...

SweetPea73

Mr Gibb is very good at listening to customers and unless he has changed he will call you himself.

Silent_Mule wrote: »

Just a quick update - I have sent:

1. A letter to Customer Relations department, recorded delivery demanding the money back.
2. An e-mail to Mr Gibb, asking for his help and also asking for the money back.

As alwyas, I shall update here, as and when.

chuckley

not suprised you've had no reply.

i wouldnt!

Silent_Mule

Yes

SweetPea73 wrote: »

Mr Gibb is very good at listening to customers and unless he has changed he will call you himself.

I do hope you're right, though as yet, nothing and I sent my e-mail to him on 5th January. I suppose it could have got lost in his e-mails. I will resend.

Does anyone know what percentage of a train fare goes to the compnay that takes the booking? I imagine it has to be something, much liek credit card acquisition fees, but I my research on the net has so far drawn a blank on how fare payments are structured.

robt_2

No

Silent_Mule wrote: »

I do hope you're right, though as yet, nothing and I sent my e-mail to him on 5th January. I suppose it could have got lost in his e-mails. I will resend.

Does anyone know what percentage of a train fare goes to the compnay that takes the booking? I imagine it has to be something, much liek credit card acquisition fees, but I my research on the net has so far drawn a blank on how fare payments are structured.

Don't quote me on this, but from memory, I suspect it is either 8% or 9%. The other 90+% is usually subject to very complicated algorithms. For more on that, Google "ORCATS".

Silent_Mule

Yes

robt wrote: »

Don't quote me on this, but from memory, I suspect it is either 8% or 9%. The other 90+% is usually subject to very complicated algorithms. For more on that, Google "ORCATS".

Thanks Robt. After much "Googling" and other adventures in investigation land, I can confirm that, under current ORCAT rules, for a restricted ticket sale, the company that makes the sale gets 9% and the companywith whom you travel gets the other 91%. So, if I buy through VT for a VT journey they get 100% of the money that I part with.

The same is not true of an open return, where the money is divided up equally amongst all train companies whose services I could use (that'll be ZaNu Labour ever-muddying the waters, I suspect).

There is nothing that says a restricted ticket cannot be sold as a walk-up fare (that I've been able to unearth).

OTHER UPDATES:

Received a letter from VT on 19th January, dated 15th January (presumably not sent using a walk-up stamp), simply saying:

"Dear Mr .....

"Thank you very much for your correspondence which was received on 7 January 2009.

"We will write again soon with a further response

"Yours sincerely"

Note the lack of reference to which correspondence I had sent (the one on 27 November or the on of 3 January, etc).

Letter number 2, received 22 January, dated 20 January:

"Dear Mr.....

"Thank you very much for your correspondence, which was rceieved in this office on 7 January 2009.

"I do appreciate your frustration at having to purchase another ticket for your journey. [Starts well, methinks.] You are asked to agree to the terms and conditions befoe going ahead with the booking and this [sic] does state that the card used to make the booking must be produced in conjunction with the e-ticket to make this valid for travel. This is one of the security measures in place to ensure that the printed ticket is not being used fraudulently. We realise that there are occasions where customers may not be able to do so, but as explained to you by our call centre, this authorisation is provided at the discretion of the station staff. [So, two points: 1: the reason that they require the card is for security purposes - and it would seem that passport + driving licence + credit card statment + ticket = not secure enough in their minds, 2: the station staff have the discretionary ability to authorise travel.]

"If customers are unable to produce either a valid ticket or the appropriate supporting documentation, then they will be asked to purchase a new ticket for the journey at the fare available on the day of travel. As your initial booking was for a First Class return journey between London and Manchester, the equivalent fare available on the day of travel is the First Anytime Return you purchased. There are cheaper Standard Class tickets available had you requested this option. [So, it is completely OK for them to not inform you of the options and charge the absolute highest fare that they can get away with and its your fault for not asking for the approipriate cheaper fare or part thereof.]

"I am sorry if you feel that the situation was handled inappropriately by the members of staff that you spoke with and I will ensure your comments are used as part of our feedback process. However, this does not negate the fact that your were unable to fulfil the terms and conditions of the tickets you booked initially. In view of this, I am unable to agree a refund of the additional ticket you had to buy but as a gesture of goodwill, I would like you to accept the enclosed cheque for £95.50 in refund of the unused original booking. [Banging the gong again about me not fulfiilling the conditions... well, no !!!! Shirlock - it was a physical impossibility leading to my belief that this creates an unfair contract under the Unfair Contract Terms Act]

"Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

"Yours sincerely"

[I shan't name the name of the person signing.]

Let's not forget that their call centre advised me to go to the station and plead my case in person and to do it on the day of travel. They did not advise that I would be charged a far higher fare than had I gone the day before.

I am now considering whether to take the cheque (and another financial route that is open to me for another £95.50 recoup from the credit card) or whether to carry on. I will update again here once a decision is reached.

One thing I will certainly be doing from now on is booking all advance fares via East Midland line (whom I had an altogether pleasant recent experience with) so that I deprive VT of 9% each time.

Oh, and I've just cancelled my Vrigin Media service at home and ordered Sky instead. And, it's cheaper!:T

poet123

Send them a letter saying that you accept the cheque"without predjudice" and reserve the right to take legal action for what you still see as inclusion of unfair terms and conditions in a contract. It seems that if the station staff had the discretion to allow you to travel on production of other suitable documents proving identity,and you produced the universally accepted passport,(containing photographic confirmation)the cc statement etc,then that discretion was not properly applied.

I would be rubbing my hands with glee if I had got a letter to that effect,they have left themselves wide open. I think that this letter gives you ammunition to win in court. Go for it!!

Or alternatively, ask them to detail in writing what other forms of identity confirmation would have caused the problem to go away...be interesting to see how they answer that one!!

Silent_Mule

Yes

poet123 wrote: »

<..snip..> ask them to detail in writing what other forms of identity confirmation would have caused the problem to go away...be interesting to see how they answer that one!!

I like your thining. I think I will do exactly that (and the accept withot prejudice)

Thanks for the post :T

omelette451

Silent_Mule wrote: »

The same is not true of an open return, where the money is divided up equally amongst all train companies whose services I could use (that'll be ZaNu Labour ever-muddying the waters, I suspect).

On a point of information, I should point out that the orcats rules were set at privatisation, which you'll remember was carried out by the Tories, not Labour.

One thing I will certainly be doing from now on is booking all advance fares via East Midland line (whom I had an altogether pleasant recent experience with) so that I deprive VT of 9% each time.

If I remember correctly, 4% of the fare also goes to the ToD provider, so if you're really desperate to deprive VT of as much revenue as possible you could collect your ticket from a machine in a station run by a different company.

Silent_Mule

Yes

omelette451 wrote: »

On a point of information, I should point out that the orcats rules were set at privatisation, which you'll remember was carried out by the Tories, not Labour.

:embarasse Well, I got that wrong. Thanks for the update. I feel sure that ZaNu Laour had something to do with it but am happy to stand corrected.

omelette451 wrote: »

If I remember correctly, 4% of the fare also goes to the ToD provider, so if you're really desperate to deprive VT of as much revenue as possible you could collect your ticket from a machine in a station run by a different company.

Interesting... I didn't see that point. Handily there is such a station near where I live. Thanks for the tip. :T