Fantastic comment piece from the Times on the giveaway to mortgage holders

Really2

nickmason wrote: »

My 80 year-old Dad is similarly stoic; he has been taken once to hospital when what he thought was indigestion and really nothing to worry about (despite his obvious agony) was in fact two gall-stones the size of golf balls apparently. Think that's the only time he's been to the "quack"!

I don't know if it's a class/background thing (he was a submarine officer but from a working class family), or just a generational one.

Either way, I always feel a little ashamed to talk of my "man-flu"!

Perhaps this is a better example of why men die earlier than women (not going to the doctors when something is wrong) and this may be the reason why the gap is now narrowing (60+ YO more likely to now go to the doctors)

Going to the doctors and not fighting through an ilness was seen as weekness. But in reality we now know "mucus warriors" now infect more people and cost companys more in loss of productivity etc.

StevieJ

carolt wrote: »

On what do you base that I am 'middle class'?

By some criteria I would be working class, by some middle and by some 'upper middle' or even 'upper'. Personally, I don't feel the need to identify myself as anyone of these.

You do seem to have got some strange bee in your bonnet about me and/or about the middle class - I'm not clear which.

As you blatantly haven't read the article, you might be interested to know that far from being an attack on the working classes, it is actually an attack on the govt policy of giving large hand-outs to...middle class voters, whilst attacking (the govt that is, not the article) the poor and scapegoating them for receiving benefits.

And my OP clearly states I strongly agreed with the article.

Go and have a cup of tea - you seem to be het up over nothing.

Good fightback Carol

kennyboy66_2

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

I'm sure that to some extent educated, assertive and articulate people do get better treatment on the NHS.

For example, I was distinctly unhappy about some of the pre-natal care I was getting when pregnant with Isaac. So I made a fuss, wrote a couple of firm and polite letters, and got it sorted out.

Is that "fiddling the system", though?

No that comes into the category of "working" the system. You know how to get the best out of the system and who wouldn't do that.

What people can't seem to get their head round is this;
If a white middle class person presents at a doctors and needs a heart bypass, they are more likely to get it quicker than a black working class person.

Equally a student from a public school is more likely to get into one of the top universites than a student from a poor background with equal grades.

And you know what, whenever research is done in the UK on this, a student from a poor background who has identical grades as one from a public school would actually get a better class of degree from the same university.
(Warwick Business School & Sutton Trust)

What do me get when anybody suggests fairer access to higher education - a load of bollox about "political correctness" and social engineering.

StevieJ

kennyboy66 wrote: »

No that comes into the category of "working" the system. You know how to get the best out of the system and who wouldn't do that.

What people can't seem to get their head round is this;
If a white middle class person presents at a doctors and needs a heart bypass, they are more likely to get it quicker than a black working class person.

Equally a student from a public school is more likely to get into one of the top universites than a student from a poor background with equal grades.

And you know what, whenever research is done in the UK on this, a student from a poor background who has identical grades as one from a public school would actually get a better class of degree from the same university.
(Warwick Business School & Sutton Trust)

What do me get when anybody suggests fairer access to higher education - a load of bollox about "political correctness" and social engineering.

Equally a student from a public school is more likely to get into one of the top universites than a student from a poor backgroundwith equal grades.

I thought that Oxbridge got ticked off by the public schools for doing the opposite, I am not sure what happens now.

catriona79

Just a quick message from a health professional in training, whose family consists of many health professionals:

The Black Report (1980) found that due to differences in spending those social groups and areas that need medical resources the most were least likely to receive them. Hart (1971) claims there is an inverse care law: ‘the availability of good medical care tends to vary inversely with the need of the population served’.

Social Class

·‘Postcode prescribing’ - certain treatments and drugs are often denied to working class areas.

·Cartwright and O’Brien (1976) have demonstrated that working class patients have shorter consultation times and have to wait longer to see a doctor than middle class patients.

Howlett & Ashley found that middle class patients were more likely to be admitted to university teaching hospitals than working class patients.


·The working class are less likely to use preventative health care such as antenatal clinics than the middle class.
·It has been found that when the working class do make use of health services they are less likely to make effective use of them. Boulton (1996) found working class patients were less likely to request further explanation or clarification about their conditions.

Reasons for lack of use/access

Cultural factors


·The working class are less knowledgeable about health & illness issues than the middle class.
·The working class are less likely to plan for future well being.
·Many working class people face communication difficulties with middle class doctors. Working class people are often socialised into a restricted language code and therefore lack the linguistic skills to communicate effectively with doctors who use an elaborated language code with specialist medical terminology.

Structural/material factors

·Difficulties gaining paid time off work.
·Face transport difficulties.
Unable to afford NHS charging services such as opticians and dentists.


I was taught (as was my husband too) that the middle classes (esp. women) make most use of the NHS.

Lotus-eater

kennyboy66 wrote: »

What people can't seem to get their head round is this;
If a white middle class person presents at a doctors and needs a heart bypass, they are more likely to get it quicker than a black working class person.

They wouldn't at my doctors, I could guarantee it. My area has its fair share of working class areas, but it generally is better than most.
Probably down to the doctors in certain areas not being up to scratch. If not that, then why, or how, can this be happening?

catriona79

"As if this were not bad enough, social class introduces its own complications for the consultation. The Office of National Statistics 2001 report on life expectancy inequalities pointed out a 10 year difference in life expectancy between men living in the north of the United Kingdom and those in the south. Part of the explanation for this is that although young men from the lower socioeconomic groups, which are assumed to be poor users, visit the doctor on average 2.21 times a year, they seem to be attending just for treatment and are missing out on preventive health care."

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1121551

RecoveringAlcoholic

If this is a discussion about the UK class system, the Board Prima Donna will be along soon.

kennyboy66_2

catriona79 wrote: »

Just a quick message from a health professional in training, whose family consists of many health professionals:

The Black Report (1980) found that due to differences in spending those social groups and areas that need medical resources the most were least likely to receive them. Hart (1971) claims there is an inverse care law: ‘the availability of good medical care tends to vary inversely with the need of the population served’.

Social Class

·‘Postcode prescribing’ - certain treatments and drugs are often denied to working class areas.

·Cartwright and O’Brien (1976) have demonstrated that working class patients have shorter consultation times and have to wait longer to see a doctor than middle class patients.

Howlett & Ashley found that middle class patients were more likely to be admitted to university teaching hospitals than working class patients.


·The working class are less likely to use preventative health care such as antenatal clinics than the middle class.
·It has been found that when the working class do make use of health services they are less likely to make effective use of them. Boulton (1996) found working class patients were less likely to request further explanation or clarification about their conditions.

Reasons for lack of use/access

Cultural factors


·The working class are less knowledgeable about health & illness issues than the middle class.
·The working class are less likely to plan for future well being.
·Many working class people face communication difficulties with middle class doctors. Working class people are often socialised into a restricted language code and therefore lack the linguistic skills to communicate effectively with doctors who use an elaborated language code with specialist medical terminology.

Structural/material factors

·Difficulties gaining paid time off work.
·Face transport difficulties.
Unable to afford NHS charging services such as opticians and dentists.


I was taught (as was my husband too) that the middle classes (esp. women) make most use of the NHS.

No, no, no, you sound like you might know what you are talking about.
We don't want facts or reports.

We want half-baked anecdotes about the receptionist at my doctors, or the single parent down the road with 5 kids who goes to Florida every year on holiday.

catriona79

"Studies reviewed by Institute for Public Policy Research in 2006 also suggest that informed middle class patients are better able to enter and navigate the system. They are also more likely to discuss and debate their treatment options with doctors and push for their preference more forcefully. There is also some evidence that middle class patients may spend longer with their GP and are referred for treatment more often."
http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/20387



Is everybody yawning yet?