NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

sickasaparrot

Links between PCI/PMS
I have compiled a number of reasons why over a number of years I believed that PMS and PCI were linked. Some of them raise questions that I believe both organisations will have to answer if/when an enquiry is held into this fiasco.
I know some of you have raised some of the points before, but for what it’s worth here are my thoughts.

1. Presbyterian Mutual Society was established in 1982 with offices in Church House.
Have there ever been other offices in Church House rented out to businesses not affiliated to the Presbyterian Church? (I am talking about upstairs offices and not the ground floor mall).

2. PCI and PMS share the same internet address and email address:

Internet address PCI = www.presbyterianireland.org
Mutual Society = www.presbyterianireland.org/mutual
Email addresses PCI = [EMAIL="info@presbytrianireland.org"]info@presbytrianireland.org[/EMAIL]
Mutual Society= [EMAIL="mutual@presbyterian.org"]mutual@presbyterian.org[/EMAIL]

3. Rule 4 of the PMS rules states that “Membership shall only be available to members of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland over the age of 18 years and their families together with officers and employees of the Society .......”.

4. Rule 60 in the PMS rule book states that “On any dissolution of the Society the surplus of the assets ..... shall be transferred to the Trustees of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland........”

5. The Presbyterian Church Press Office has in the past released press releases via internet relating to the Mutual Society. I have a printed copy and a copy saved to disk which has the heading “Presbyterian Mutual Assets top £47m” which was released on 17.6.03. (This link has recently been removed).

6. On 27 October 2008 the Chairman of the Directors and Secretary of the Mutual Society had a meeting with the Moderator’s Advisory Committee to inform them that the Society was no longer able to meet demand for payments, would be invoking the 21 day rule and would be writing to shareholders. See www.presbyterianireland.org/news/news2009/news0653.html

Why would PMS, being a separate entity, feel it had to report to the Moderator?
Why would PMS report to Moderator before informing shareholders?

7. Literature provided by the Mutual society used phrases such as:

"The Presbyterian Mutual Society was established in 1982 to encourage Presbyterians to save through their own church and manage such savings for their mutual benefit to enable shareholders to borrow at a competitive rate of interest.”

8. Congregations were able to borrow at an interest rate 0.25% above the Bank of England base rate while the rest of the membership had to pay 2% above the base rate.

If PMS and PCI are not connected who made the decision to give PCI preferential treatment and lend to congregations at a reduced rate?

9. There are a number of retired and serving ministers on the Board of Directors.

10. The burning bush emblem is a registered logo by the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and has been used by PMS in its literature.

http://www.presbyterianireland.org/resources/logos.html

11. The following are extracts from the 2008 Chairman’s report:
“We are not a secular financial group”, “the PMS will continue to prosper, giving our members a good return for their money and continuing to play its part in building the Church” and “We continue to look to God for wisdom and guidance so that we may continue to be a blessing within his Church”.

12. Extracts from the 2007 Chairman’s report:
“Two new ministerial members have maintained our contact with the Church”, “our Society is one of the great successes of our Church” and “We thank God himself who has so clearly caused our work to prosper. We continue to look to Him to make the PMS a blessing within His Church”.

I’m sure that there are many more similar associations.
Silly me for believing that PMS and PCI were connected!!!!!!

D.A.

goodbyepci wrote: »

3. The Presbyterian Mutual Society also reported to the General Assembly.

To keep this completely correct, actually they didn't. If I'm not mistaken, the Board of Mission in Ireland report to the Assembly would normally have mentioned the PMS, but the PMS themselves did not report (although if anyone has access to older reports, I'm happy to be corrected).

I know that's really playing with words, but if anyone is thinking of a court challenge or inquiry, you need to be sure that you're always working with facts.

EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong above. Having read 2008's Board of Mission in Ireland report, there is an entire section devoted to, and presented by a Director of, the PMS. Oops!

sickasaparrot

Here is what Dr Watts had to say on the subject of PMS during his interview on Spotlight. I have removed Donald Watts stutters and ems’s etc.

Q. Do you think the society was using the name of the Presbyterian Church to encourage investments?
A. It probably was.

Q. Is that a good thing?
A. No it’s not something we encourage. There is nothing we can do about it you know – if somebody wants to use the name Presbyterian we cannot copyright that.
So while not encouraging PMS to use Presbyterian in its name, Donald Watts had earlier in the interview commented on the nature of the relationship between PCI and PMS saying,
“ the relationship while separate is one of mutual respect, mutual caring and support. Every year as a matter of courtesy the society is allowed to basically tell the Assembly how it is doing. Always in the past it has said it is doing very well (SMURK – BIG GRIN!!) and the Assembly then would pass a resolution encouraging the society”.
Could having the PMS present a report every year at Assembly, not be seen as encouraging the PMS?

When asked if he felt the society was using the name of the Presbyterian Church to benefit its own activities he replied,
“ I suspect it probably was. Yes. We have no control over that – I think one of the lessons that I would draw is that as a church we have to be very careful about peoples’ perceptions, you know, where it was obvious that back in the 80’s a separate society was formed and as I said earlier even the name seemed to make it clear what it was. I think that has not been as clear to people as it should have been and we do need to be careful that peoples’ perceptions are what we think they are and not something else”.

The resolution agreed by the General Assembly ‘08-
“ the General Assembly congratulate the members of the Presbyterian Mutual Society on its continuing success and encourage congregations and individuals to avail themselves of its services”.

When asked “was the resolution an attempt to encourage people to invest” Donald Watts replied
“ Not really. It was, it says, the wording as I remember is – it encourages people to avail of its facilities. I think it was thinking much more of if you were thinking of borrowing money – that might be somewhere you might want to look, but (interjection)”

Q. But also invest?
A. Well you interpret it whatever way you want to interpret it really.
Obviously Donald Watts didn’t even know that in order to borrow money from the Society you first of all had to be a shareholder. ( i.e. have savings.)

Q. Some would see that as financial advice.
A. Well I wouldn’t but others may – yeah.

Q. But you can see why people would see that as financial advice.
A. I can only go by what I think the Assembly was trying to do which was trying to give a very general nod towards the society as one option for people particularly who wanted to borrow money.

Q. But to be fair, it is more than a nod, it is an endorsement.
A. I think you have to be careful what is financial advice and what is not. It is not financial advice in the sense that it is not trying to say that in every circumstance the society is the vehicle for you.

To summarise Dr Watts says that the Presbyterian Church would not encourage other legal entities to use the name Presbyterian, but he says there is nothing they can do about it. Despite this disapproval, every year “as a matter of courtesy” PCI ask the Presbyterian Mutual Society into the General Assembly to let everyone know how it’s doing. Hardly an act that would discourage or show any annoyance by PCI if a separate legal entity does decide to use Presbyterian in its name.

Nomad25

Why is there so many people on here complaining sooooooo much about people who have borrowed for "buy to lets" ??? blah, blah quote edited,

:rotfl: Well, that'll teach me to offer a bit of encouragement!!

You are , of course, entitled to post your view :rolleyes: .

goodbyepci

just cutting and pasting this in haste from General Assembly reports 2007 and 2008.

Apologies if the font is strange, my internet playing up so no time to format

MINUTES OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE General Assembly OF THE Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Held at Belfast, June, 2007
THIRD SESSION

Tuesday, 5th June, 2007 Two o’clock. Afternoon
The Assembly again convened, the Moderator leading in prayer.
Moved by the Rev RA Patton, seconded by the Rev WJ Henry and agreed:
1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]That the Report be received.

Towards “Vibrant Communities of Christ …”
Presbyterian Mutual Society
9. That the General Assembly congratulate the Directors of the Presbyterian Mutual Society on its continuing success and encourage congregations and individuals to avail themselves of its services.

Assembly 2008 Minutes
SEVENTH SESSION
Thursday, 5th June, 2008 Two o’clock. Afternoon
BOARD OF MISSION IN IRELAND – debate resumed
Moved by the Rev RA Patton, seconded by the Rev DJ Bruce and agreed:
11.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]That the General Assembly congratulate the Directors of the Presbyterian Mutual Society on its continuing success and encourage Congregations and individuals to avail themselves of its services.


Report of Board of Mission in Ireland
Annual Reports Belfast 2008
After Finance committee and Property committee
Page 152

PRESBYTERIAN MUTUAL SOCIETY
The Rev Sidlow McFarland reports:
1. The Directors are pleased to report another very satisfactory year’s
progress in the work of the Society. The number of new members has increased
to over ten thousand and with a further new investment during the year the total
assets now exceed £300 million.
2. An increase in the volume of lending, together with a strong rental
income from our commercial property investments, enabled the Society to
produce a gross profit of £20 million. This enabled a dividend of 6.6% to have
been declared on all shareholdings for the financial year ended 31 March 2008.
3. Congregations and individuals continue to make use of the very
competitive borrowing facilities available for a wide range of purposes from car,
house and land purchase to business expansion and bridging finance.
4. In conclusion, the Directors offer thanks to God for all that he has
enabled the Presbyterian Mutual Society to achieve over the past year and pray
for his continued blessing in the future.

cheesed_off_4

Crazymess Here is a cutting from Farmweek dated 22nd June 1990, where a correspondent Rodney Magowen reports on the role of the PMS.

FINANCE WITH HUMANE – CHRISTIAN FACE!

The PMS is a finance house with a difference offering a confidential service to those who wish to either borrow or invest money.
Run by the Presbyterian Church for its members, the PMS deals with clients not just as customers, but as fellow human beings. Finance one might say with a Christian conscience.
Over 48 years ago concerned church members founded the Rural Settlement Trust primarily to help scattered Presbyterian farming communities in the Irish Republic. It goes on to say that it had funds of about £30,000.
By 1982 following entry into the European Community there came a change in legislation at Westminster to tighten up on some of the more doubtful financial operators.

This meant the Rural Settlement Trust would have either to close up or have investments of at least £250,000. The last secretary of the RST was Frank Rowan and he suggested to the directors that the organisation broaden its role and become a charity registered under the Friendly Societies Act operating rather like the very successful Credit Union movement. Hence the PMS was born in 1982.
Hope this is helpful.

crazymess

cheesed_off wrote: »

Crazymess Here is a cutting from Farmweek dated 22nd June 1990, where a correspondent Rodney Magowen reports on the role of the PMS.

FINANCE WITH HUMANE – CHRISTIAN FACE!

The PMS is a finance house with a difference offering a confidential service to those who wish to either borrow or invest money.
Run by the Presbyterian Church for its members, the PMS deals with clients not just as customers, but as fellow human beings. Finance one might say with a Christian conscience.
Over 48 years ago concerned church members founded the Rural Settlement Trust primarily to help scattered Presbyterian farming communities in the Irish Republic. It goes on to say that it had funds of about £30,000.
By 1982 following entry into the European Community there came a change in legislation at Westminster to tighten up on some of the more doubtful financial operators.

This meant the Rural Settlement Trust would have either to close up or have investments of at least £250,000. The last secretary of the RST was Frank Rowan and he suggested to the directors that the organisation broaden its role and become a charity registered under the Friendly Societies Act operating rather like the very successful Credit Union movement. Hence the PMS was born in 1982.
Hope this is helpful.

WONDER WHAT THE TWO DONALDS WILL THINK WHEN THEY SEE THIS!!!
RUN BY THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH FOR ITS MEMBERS.

In the early days the Churches - left PMS leaflets and application forms in the vestibules for its congregations. Would you really do that if you weren't linked and benefiting from it?

Just a thought.

expat68

. On two other matters, the Presbyterian Church was commended. Speaking about the Church’s investments, Mr Sydney Gamble remarked that he was almost tempted to re-convert to Presbyterianism to take advantage of the excellent dividends from the Presbyterian Mutual Society. Watch out for a Church of Ireland Mutual Society!

This is from Gen Assembly minutes in June 2008 - yes just 4 months before it all went pear shaped and PCI were still doing nothing to clarify their involvement !!
Clear that legally the PCI can probably walk away BUT even senior politicians argue they have a moral responsibility. I guess we are all just waiting to see if the PCI has morals................

BelfastGran

FRIDAY 20TH FEBRUARY IS THE LAST DAY FOR THE DOWNING STREET PETITION ONLY 5683 Names


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Save-the-Mutuals/

freddiemae

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Money-speculation-39not-unchristian39-.4982578.jp


money speculation is not unchristian