NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

joylikes2shop

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/PMS--What-can-savers.5843658.jp

readyforaction

That's your fellow Presbyterians for you.

I wonder about this chain of events.

Abridged Accounts in 2008 Report - Directors knew that the liquid reserves were under pressure.
Appeal at General Assembly to save in PMS - Yes, you might say that it happens every year but there appeared to be a more concerted drive from the pulpit to get people to save in PMS.
Were the Directors heaving a sigh of relief as the money started to come in during the summer?
Rumours started to emerge about the state of PMS in Summer 2008 - people started to withdraw
£50K guarantee came in early October and people were encouraged by banks to withdraw and put it into their establishment.
No 21 day rule in place which meant the liquid reserves were rushing out without any control mechanism and then it was too late to do anything about reversing the situation.

WHAT A MESS!

The directors knew from the Year End Accounts in 2008 that the Society was in diffs. In my opinion they thought they could ride it out. Back to the principle that telling the truth is the best policy and giving us abridged accounts was not the truth.

How did the accounts get through the auditors though?

There are a lot of accounting questions to be asked, aren't there? Thank goodness for the investigation.

What's the problem for these two men to answer questions to bring clarity to the investigative process? I would have thought that they would have been only too glad to participate to help alleviate the suffering of 9,500 savers and bring answers to the many questions that are running round in people's heads.

Only, perhaps, maybe it's not...no, there couldn't have been anything wrong taking place, could there?????

Everyone's running away aren't they? It's like a burning house that we can't even get the Fire Service (DETI, HM GOVERNMENT AND PCI) to rescue!!!!!

LET'S KEEP HOPING AND PRAYING - WE JUST CAN'T FACE ANOTHER CHRISTMAS WITHOUT HOPE.

Janesays

I'm sure it's been said before by others but religon and money does not mix. I understand the affiliated level of TRUST that could be expected from such an arrangement but as my late grandmother always said 'the bigger the bible the bigger the rogue!'

D.A.

readyforaction wrote: »

How did the accounts get through the auditors though?

Enron's accounts got past their auditors, because the auditors were just as bent as everyone else. Not that I'm implying anything about the PMS's auditors of course.

And religion and money *can* mix; it's religion and the *love* of money which don't mix.

readyforaction

This whole affair has brought out the very worst in humanity.

It is difficult to reconcile how man can treat his fellow man in such an unbiblical manner!

anotherDonald

To quote the PMS "flyer" freely available from churches and PMS office before the meltdown.

Questions and Answers

Q How is it managed

A The Society is managed by the Board of Directors comprised of experienced and respected ministers and laymen of the church who undertake this responsibility for the mutual benefit of all its Presbyterian investors.

Personally I would like to ask these "experienced" and "respected" laymen of the church why they are unwilling to be interviewed by the AADB if they have nothing to hide?

Also as they have "undertaken this responsibility" on our behalf.

Would they not answer the questions now being asked "on our behalf"?

goodbyepci

A few quotes from the 2008 abridged accounts

Page 4
The accounts were "Approved by the board of Directors on 12th June 2008 and signed on its behalf by
Chairman Rev S S McFarland

Vice-Chairman Mr D J Clements

Quote from page 5
From the Chairman's Report
"Also since the year's end, our Vice Chairman, David Clements decided to retire from that office and I want to express in this report our deep appreciation of all that he has done over the years. David was always forward - thinking and many of the changes we have made for the betterment of the Society began with him. He took charge of internal auditing and was also an indispensable member of our Loans Committee. We thank him for all that he has done and are glad that he will continue as a member of the Board"


I would like to ask a few rhetorical questions

1. Why did David Clements retire as Vice Chairman?
2. What were the changes made for "the betterment of the Society"? The 2002 PMS website states that any spare funds were lodged with local banks.
3. What decisions were made by the Loans Committee? The Society's promotional literature states that the Directors would not under any circumstances speculate with the funds entrusted to their care.
4. Why is David Clements unwilling to be interviewed by the AADB?

readyforaction

Good points made Goodbyepci

Just thinking rationally and taking your train of thought forward.

The PMS and PCI are two separate legal entities - statement of fact.

Would anyone else share the following view?

It would be prudent of PCI to come out at this stage and request that, ethically, morally and in the name of religious witness, that the two directors who do not want to be interviewed should co-operate fully with the investigation in the interest of the savers.

The church requesting this would certainly demonstrate a public act of support for the savers impacted by the PMS crisis.

Since there is no legal connection, I am sure that the church will have no problem issuing a statement in support of the PMS savers.

They were quite forthright at the very beginning in denying any legal connection with PMS so I am assuming that, ethically they are on the side of the saver.

Their actions over the next few days could speak louder than words - let's watch and see what they think of the savers.

BETRAYED

I think we should focus on the forthcoming report.

From HM Treasury Website
Presbyterian Mutual Society working group

The Prime Minister recently announced that a working group of Ministers would be formed to look specifically at problems at the Presbyterian Mutual Society. The working group had its first meeting on 16 July and is scheduled to report back to the Prime Minister in the autumn.
The Administrator of PMS is also in parallel to this, progressing with his enquiries and is due to report back to members and creditors in September.
Membership

Chief Secretary to the Treasury
Economic Secretary to the Treasury
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
Minister for Finance and Personnel, Northern Ireland
Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, Northern Ireland
First Minister
Deputy First Minister
Terms of reference

• To investigate the circumstances surrounding the collapse of the PMS.
• To consider the losses incurred by PMS members
• To consider what, if any, action can be taken to mitigate members' losses, particularly those hardest hit by the collapse of the PMS.

The Working Group will take account of the legislative framework under which PMS operates; the work of the Administrator; wider financial services policy, fairness and value for money.
The Group will submit a draft report to the Prime Minister in September.

HOPE

Readyforaction, AnotherDonald and Goodbyepci all make very vaild points and raise searching questions which require to be answered. Thankfully it looks as if the AADB are conducting a far ranging investigation and the actions of the Directors will also form part of the Ministerial Working Party report as part of it's remit.

It is obvious to me that both Directors have acted unprofessionally in their role as Directors otherwise why is DETI involved in a Director Disqualification process. Secondly, there is an inference of wrongdoing by the mere fact they do not wish to be interviewed by the AADB notwitstanding any potential litigation.

Only my view but in practice it is highly probable that the remaining lay Directors relied almost entirely on these particular two because of their professional qualifications.

One thing for sure information as to what occurred is starting to come out into the public domain and no doubt there is much more to follow.