NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

crazymess

Lets do some maths!


pms = 310 million pounds approximately of presbyterian savings


What did they do with the money?

Well they bought properties - which are now not worth what they bought them for - also they are only now worth what someone wants to pay for them - however they are earning income by way of rents but some of the properties may be losing tenants -


They lent money out to property developers or money out to land purchases - some of these people have gone bust - so therefore they can't get their loans repaid - no money left - so if pms took 1st charge - then we own the ground - not worth now what we lent out on in the first place - also this ground is only worth what someone wants to pay for it.

They lent out our savings to people for buy-to-lets ???????? value of properties are now down so oops - hopefully those who bought the properties and got a loan from our savings - are still in a position to repay.

They lent out money to congregations - 12 million - SAFE, SAFE, SAFE

By my estimate they may have now approx 12 million in the bank account - but remember they still owe the savers just under 300 million????????


Please do the maths
It could take years to sort this out - who wants to buy property now - who can repay their loans now?

I may be wrong - but if everything was turned into money within the next two - three years it would still only be 200 million.

Therefore huge loss!!!!!!!!!

Would love someone to come and tell me differently



However I do understand why pms diversified - in order to create a dividend for its savers - we thought they had lent to congregations.

There is not enough money - and please we cannot be niave about this - I'm just concerned how many pms savers still think this is actually going to be alright - because its not.

My view is the only way to resolve this is A CASH INJECTION FROM SOMEWHERE.

Very long winded I know - BUT I WANT TO TRY AND EXPLAIN TO THOSE WHO HAVE SAVINGS INVOLVED THE REALITY - as I see it - PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

Whatnow?_3

Crazymess - this all makes complete sense.

Nomad25

A CASH INJECTION FROM SOMEWHERE.

PCI - ANY CHANCE?

amadan22

dear whatnow?, at 3.15pm november 12th i phoned pms. i was told "don't worry. your money is 100% safe. it might take a little more than 21 days to access it." 45mins later i was informed on the radio that my savings were totally inaccessible!!!! outrageous chicanery!!!!
to anyone else: i seem to remember a post saying 3 or 4 savers had persued legal action just before admin. came into play? anyone know how they got on? also, i'm guessing they're pretty heavy hitters, so, if they had a favourable outcome, does this mean there is even less in the pot!?

Nomad25

The staff would not have been given any option. After all they are hardly in a position to respond to a saver's enquiry with........ "No it's not safe. We're going down, but I can't tell you that because the piggies want first pickings at the trough while there is still some there to be had .. and it's more than my job's worth to tell you this."...are they?

Whatnow?_3

Amadan 22 - sorry, don't know how they got on.

amadan22

to nomad25. a wee bit of truth would've been nice. not down and out, in your face b.s.! at the time i expected more of them. we all know better now.

crazymess

amadan22 wrote: »

dear whatnow?, at 3.15pm november 12th i phoned pms. i was told "don't worry. your money is 100% safe. it might take a little more than 21 days to access it." 45mins later i was informed on the radio that my savings were totally inaccessible!!!! outrageous chicanery!!!!
to anyone else: i seem to remember a post saying 3 or 4 savers had persued legal action just before admin. came into play? anyone know how they got on? also, i'm guessing they're pretty heavy hitters, so, if they had a favourable outcome, does this mean there is even less in the pot!?

I'm not trying to give credit to PMS - again this seems to have been what happened -

25 million in the pot - because the other 285 milliion was spent

people came calling for their full amounts of money - and got their cheques - and this happened for two weeks

balance 4 million

then panic within pms and its staff - the shock led to disaster - they seemed to have been unsure what to do and then fobbed us off with "it will take 21 days to get your money" - meanwhile they were organising administration etc with Mrs A/Foster

Also then 3 savers set up a court action and then this is the reason why Arlene Foster CHANGED THE legislation in order to afford the PMS of the opportunity to go into administration etc etc etc. So they didn't get their money at all - so now the pot is just nearly empty because of, in hindsight - unsafe llending and buying with our savings!!!

Balance still 4 million

oh sorry now need to pay Arthur Boyd - L'estrange and Brett and every other professional advisor they need to pay!!!!!

Little bit of income now maybe up to 10 - 12 million - oops still not enough to even pay out 3%!!!

OldJohn

Some observations if I may, IF the PMS had lent out ALL of the funds to Churches/Individuals for whatever and had Not purchased the property that brings in rent, what would actually be different now? Loans are for years therefore it would take years for them to be paid back - without the income (I believe it's around 8million a year) to add to our funds.
So selling this property would be a mistake. Property value will go back up but again this takes time.
Lack of confidence in the Society was it's downfall, same applies to any financial institution, the guy who was on telly from the Irish credit unions, I think, told how people withdrew their money from banks and put it into the credit union, guess what, the credit union put it into the bank!
I believe that the PMS lent out to the value of 75% so if calling in a debt, the value of land/dwelling would have to fallen by more than 25%.
Time is the answer to our problems, I know some folk are in dire straits and don't have time, that's why if we adopt a MUTUAL approach to our fellow brothers & sisters we can all survive this catastrophe.
I have no doubt the management of the PMS are guilty of some misinformation in the final weeks, (note I do not consider the office staff managers but messengers) re the delay in implementing the 21 day rule, and in particular I deplore the decision not to communicate with shareholders whoever made that decision ought to be...........
I see no evidence of Ministers/Congregations being 'in the know' and lifting their money, If that was the case we would know about it by now.
So I believe that we can survive this if we are kind and gracious to one another. It's been mentioned before that funds leaving the Society to keep others in business are having a negative effect to our savings, the last thing we need is to fund the coffers of others if someone decided to take legal action. We all need to consider where we want the current funds in the Society to go, fairly shared around, or to some and the rest to legal representatives. It all depends where money falls in our list of priorities.

crazymess

OldJohn

I respect all of your posts

but I agree time and patience - but there is a serious void - no amount of time is going to return the deficit.

Perhaps you know something - but rather than go over the maths again - it is not going to come out of thin air - even if property boomed tomorrow - they cannot get money back from those who are now in liquidation - ie they have lent money to people who have now gone BUST.

Many savers know of this and many do not - it still shocks me that in and around churches and chatting to people - they think this will be alright in the end. It makes me so sad -

I also have difficulty in listening to PCI and their advisors - or its now legal and we can't step in - greatest load of nonsense - if every family in the presbyterian congregations donated an agreed amount - also a donation from Church House -and left it sitting in a fund - then this could be used for the shortfall - This would be hard to do but perhaps achievable - remember that the congregations have say 40 million in the pms - this would help return their monies as well. A bit like moving money around for the better gain of everyone.

To do nothing PCI is a big mistake.