Castration (again!)

zebidee1

The castration chat has come up again between me and Harley's vet. Harley is going back in next week to get sedated for something else and the vet thinks it would be worth castrating at the same time, although he wasn't pushy in any way and said I could leave it and think about it some more.

Some of the regulars might remember we got a behaviourist out for Harley as he was so scared of everything and he advised that castration probably wasn't for Harley as he needed all the testosterone he could get his doggy paws on. He thought castration might well make him worse and he'd become even more fearful (since he had no testosterone to help make him bolshy)and in turn he might become agressive because of his fears.

The vet doesn't think this is an issue, he thinks Harley will be Harley even after castration, he doesn't think he'll be any worse. I don't know what to do now tbh. It was always my intention to castrate but I read the behaviourist's report again and what he says seems to make sense to me. The behaviourist is well known and was the 'expert on call' for various media articles and also a tv prog so he's well enough respected and isn't a back street quack type. The vet is a genuinely good, caring chap who obviously believes in what he says. How on earth am I supposed to know what to do if two experts in their fields disagree?

My concerns are mainly twofold.....risk of cancer v's emphasising Harley's issues. Also, I hope I don't upset anyone by saying this, but I need to consider this carefully for Harley's sake, he has to be the focus here, I cant base this decision on the unwanted puppies angle that I've seen written in posts about this subject.

I've been googling but can't find much. I really wanted to read about the negatives as well as the positives. I'm very worried about this, any words of wisdom regarding Harley's situation in particular (rather than just about castration in general I mean)?

simontheiceman

Hmmmm - whenever I hear the word "behaviourist" I start to get a bit twitchy, and even more so when they have "credentials". It is vital that we make a distinction between a member of the ABPC (Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors" and someone who is little more than a dog trainer. If your behaviourist is not of the former then they are of the latter. This species has no standing of note and usually has few qualifications to back it up.

That all said, I would always play down the "health benefits" of castration. There is a greater risk in general anaesthesia than there is in leaving the testicles behind and risking the possibility of potentially fatal malignant cancer. I would always try to add castration to another procedure if at all possible.

In my experience most testicular tumours are benign and I have yet to have a case where I have wished I had castrated the dog much sooner than I did. In fact I pick up most testicular tumors at routine health checks (another startlingly good reason for getting annual vaccination done) and have never had a case which has developed secondary tumors.

So health benefits:
1 no testicular tumors
2 reduced incidence of prostatic disease
3. reduced problems with perineal hernias
4. breeding control

You should bear in mind also that uncastrated dogs effectively suffer from sexual frustration and castration takes this "drive" away leading to a more manageable dog.

I would perhaps consider the use of the anti-androgen "Tardak" to see how castration would affect your dog as a short term measure (the injection lasts for about 2-3 months in total. You would therefore have a chance to see how castration would impact upon his behaviours prior to a more permanent cut.

simontheiceman

BTW if your dog is really scared of everything then a "fear protocol" of pharmaceuticals can be a great trial ( I usually prescribe 2 months to start ). I have a collie on the books which does really well on this. Those who get in early enough for firework season often find this protocol very useful (especially in Staffies).

jenhug

I would take the behaviourists opinion with a pinch of salt.

nothavingfun..

simontheiceman wrote: »

BTW if your dog is really scared of everything then a "fear protocol" of pharmaceuticals can be a great trial ( I usually prescribe 2 months to start ). I have a collie on the books which does really well on this. Those who get in early enough for firework season often find this protocol very useful (especially in Staffies).

may i ask what pharmaceuticals?

pboae

I had the same issue with my dog, and we held off having him castrated for 12 months. The behaviourist I was seeing and my vet, were both in favour of it, but the behaviourist who had first assessed him at the rescue was dead against it, and we had been asked to agree not to have him castrated when we adopted him. After a lot of wrangling the rescue agreed to let us go ahead (we could have just done it anyway I suppose, but I wanted to do it properly). I felt that my vet and behaviorist really understood my dog, and was happy to take their advice, and it was the best thing we ever did for him. It wasn't a miracle cure but it was definitely a turning point in his training. I honestly don't know what I would have done if they had disagreed.

We did look at Tardak too, but I know a couple of people who were left with seriously disturbed dogs after trying it, effects that lasted long after the actual injection had worn off. Logically I know that reactions like that are relatively rare, but when you've seen it first hand it's sometimes hard to be rational about it.

It took a good 3 months for the full effects of the castration to be seen in terms of his behaviour, and we had a training plan ready for that period. Ensuring that things were as calm and quiet as possible, walking at unsociable hours to minimise the number of other dogs and people he met in uncontrolled situations while his hormones settled. But lots of group training sessions so he was still socialising in a controlled environment.

I've never regretted getting it done, but at the time it was a really hard decision. Good luck with it.

zebidee1

Thank you very much for your replies. I'm finding this a very hard decision to make so I do very much appreciate your comments.

Can I just run something else by you please? Harley has ear problems just now, which is why he is to be sedated. The vet can't get near him to examine him so he doesn't know whether it's just a wax build up, an infection, ear mites or what. If it turns out to be an infection and needs drops, is it fair to consider castrating him at this point if it means he will have some pain or irritation at both ends so to speak. Or is it better to get it all over at once even if it means he has a harder time initially? He doesn't tolerate things very well and I have visions of him bursting his stitches in an effort to get away from the ear drops.

Apart from the basic question of whether to go ahead with castration or not, I'm not sure if the above would have any bearing on when to do it?

Lastly, is there any irritation caused by being chipped? I intended to get him micro chipped whilst he was under and none the wiser anyway, but I'd hate for him to have to deal with sore ears, sore bits AND an itch because of something alien under his skin. Many dogs just take things in their stride but Harley is most definitely not one of them unfortunately.

simontheiceman

zebidee1 wrote: »

. Or is it better to get it all over at once even if it means he has a harder time initially? He doesn't tolerate things very well and I have visions of him bursting his stitches in an effort to get away from the ear drops.

Lastly, is there any irritation caused by being chipped?

I would be happier in the case of a dog such as you describe to do as much as possible under one procedure thus limiting the risks of sedation / anaesthesia. In my experience it is not usually a problem if they are given adequate pain relief and I would advise that your dog should have a course of post-operative pain relief beyond that which normal patients get.

Chipping seems to be quite innocuous and I have yet to see a dog which has been bothered by it beyond the initial stab. Sapre a thought for all those 8wo puppies I have done (I feel very guilty doing these... so small).

simontheiceman

nothavingfun.. wrote: »

may i ask what pharmaceuticals?

Indeed, you may ask, but I will not give that kind of specific advice "over the phone".

pboae

My dog didn't even notice when they put the chip in, and certainly never bothered with it afterwards. As far as I know that is the norm, though I think very little dogs are more aware of it going in, as it's a fairly wide needle, so I suppose it's all relative.

My dog also has problems with his ears :rolleyes: is Harley getting ideas of him?

If I were in your position, and had decided to get the castration done, I'd have them done at the same time. The risks from sedation (or GA) though rare, are very real, and most dogs are virtually unfazed by castration. If it were a b!tch being spayed, I might reconsider, as it's a much bigger op, and there is greater opportunities for stitches to burst, but with a dog I wouldn't be so worried.

When my dog was at his worst and needed his ear drops going in, we used to corral him in our tiny kitchen. Make him sit facing the tiled wall, and I would smear cream cheese on a tile. He got to lick the cheese off while I put his drops in and OH hung on to him to stop him running away. It wasn't entirely without incident, but it mostly worked for us, better than the other methods of trying to sneak up on him anyway. Once the worst of the infection was cleared and he wasn't so sore anymore and would come and sit there quite happily, as long as he got cheese to lick.

zebidee1

Thanks again. I will have some serious thinking to do over the weekend then. I was almost secretly hoping someone was going to say 'don't do it all at the same time' and then I could have legitimately deferred the decision making. :rolleyes:

pboae....Harley is most definitely food orientated and treats have been useful in training. However, his anxiety level is much higher than his greed and he will ignore food completely at anxious times. Shame really as I'm always happy to bribe.