Karate price for my son. Am I being ripped off?

momoyama

ailuro2 wrote: »

I phoned up and advised them coming up to my DD and trying to scratch her eyes out needed no translation in my book, and warned them it has now been made perfectly clear to her she should use any elements of her Kupso she chooses, no matter how small or big the attacker is.

The problem that I had in schoool when I was being bullied (which included knife threats) was that the teachers were useless. When I did do as you suggest and did some damage... well it stopped the bullying but got me threatened with suspension. I felt that I was the victim whatever I did. I know that this has applied to others too.

ailuro2 wrote: »

all students are taught to read situations where possible - an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. They are taught not to let strangers into their space, and to understand they should mostly run away where possible - it's the best way not to take a punch.;)

Wise words.

ailuro2 wrote: »

MY DH, from the man's point of view, told DD she should have punched the little boy in the nose to stop him in his tracks - but for that she'd be in real trouble with the school. With her martial arts training she could (and should imho) have taken him down into a restraint until the teacher came - it's not so hard to do when you know how and the other child doesn't

The problem with that is that it's ideal. Restraints are fine motor skills that are generally only tested in a dojo or ring environment. I'm not saying that they won't work but I am saying that unless your daughter is an olympic-level Judoka (or equivalent) then they are highly unlikely to work. The problem with nose punches is visible damage, so the defender looks like the aggressor, hence my first comment.

MoneySavingStudent_2

:hello:

My dad runs a karate club and charges about £2.50 per lesson which is about 2 hrs long. Your not made to attend but obviously you get further if you attend regularly!

If you're being asked for an up front fee never do it!!

It annoys me when kids have there blackbelt at the age of 6 etc! Its rediculous! You might as well of gone out to the shop and bought a black belt and just put it on the child!

I personally am a 1st kyu and stop attending due to family issues. I was up for blackbelt soon but it does cost about £100 to go for the black belt whether u pass or not.

Lessons usually include warm up, stretching, basics, fighting and kata.

My BF is a blackbelt and it took him about 5 years to get it and he trained every lesson (3 a week) and taught others when he graded etc

HTH x

momoyama

MoneySavingStudent wrote: »

My dad runs a karate club and charges about £2.50 per lesson which is about 2 hrs long.

Cheap. I should add to anyone else reading that in Martial Arts, cost often does NOT equate to quality. By which I mean that clubs charging more are not necessarily any better. McDojos usually charge the most, but yet produce least in terms of standards.

MoneySavingStudent wrote: »

You're not made to attend but obviously you get further if you attend regularly!

Yep. The student's only contract should be with themself.

MoneySavingStudent wrote: »

If you're being asked for an up front fee never do it!!

Absolutely. What are the instructors afraid of? That without financial incentive students won't stay in the class?

MoneySavingStudent wrote: »

It annoys me when kids have their blackbelt at the age of 6 etc! Its ridiculous! You might as well have gone out to the shop and bought a black belt and just put it on the child!

Except that these black belts cost thousands of pounds.

To clarify, I'm all in favour of junior Dan grades but ONLY with years of dedication and appropriate competence. I'm talking five years minimum and I'm one of the more generous clubs in this regard.

Jo.G

My son is dedicated to his martial arts and trains very hard.
He takes it seriously and has always been well behaved, respectful and listens during classes.
There are other children and adults who have been attending the school for much longer but haven’t reached black belt grade.
Maybe my eldest son has just found something he is good at and has progressed accordingly?
As I said, I dont expect my youngest son to do as well in the same time period.
I take exception to anyone who thinks I have bought my son a black belt. He has worked very hard for his achievement and it has been earned purely through his own hard work and determination.

I didnt pay up front, I pay monthly.I accept the cost just as friends who send their children to dance lessons pay for lessons regardless as to whether or not they attend, and who pay hundreds of pounds for costumes for a week’s yearly show never to be worn again.
For the children who play football who have to pay weekly subs regardless if they turn up for training or a match.
Swimming lessons that are paid for in advance whether or not your child goes each week.
Is it really so unreasonable to have to pay for an activity if you or your child can’t be bothered to turn up some weeks?

The Martial Arts Centre my children attend is a business. They own their own building’s, the instructors are all full time.
I accept the cost of their lessons, it is my choice and I can afford to pay it.
My children enjoy their lessons and as far as I'm concerned that is all that matters.

momoyama

Jo.G wrote: »

My son is dedicated to his martial arts and trains very hard. He takes it seriously and has always been well behaved, respectful and listens during classes.

So are all of my students. Well, most of them.

Jo.G wrote: »

I take exception to anyone who thinks I have bought my son a black belt.

Unfortunately, it does happen. Although I've never seen your son or the dojo that he trains in, it does sound like this is exactly what has happened. Sorry. I personally wouldn't denigrate Martial Arts or delude any student or parent by awarding a Dan grade to anyone that young. Aside from competence, there's a maturity factor. My worry is that it creates a very unrealistic understanding of ability among the student and their peers and parents. It also devalues the grade.

Jo.G wrote: »

He has worked very hard for his achievement and it has been earned purely through his own hard work and determination.

I would apply that to every grade that I award.

Jo.G wrote: »

The Martial Arts Centre my children attend is a business. .

Bingo!

Jo.G wrote: »

My children enjoy their lessons and as far as I'm concerned that is all that matters.

In principle I agree with this statement. Enjoying classes has to be the biggest factor. If you don't enjoy it then what's the point? Without enjoying it, you won't put 100% in and will probably not dedicate yourself.

Unfortunately, as someone that's spent best part of twenty years (including my entire teenage and adult years) in Martial Arts and runs a dojo, I see a much bigger picture. No one in their right mind believes that children of this age can legitimately hold a Dan grade.

I know, I'm knocking your son's accomplishments here and that's really harsh. I'm sorry. The line that I would take is that your son may well be very talented and may well have very much earned a Martial Arts grade. It's the whole Black Belt thing that bothers me. Really, for black in Britain at any respectable dojo, you're looking a five-year minimum and a certain level of maturity. I would expect Black Belt students to be capable of teaching elements of the art to other students. This is not at all unrealistic. Hand on heart, could you put your son in front of other new junior students of any age and have him teach them. If not, then he has no business wearing a Black Belt.

Jo.G

Hand on heart, could you put your son in front of other new junior students of any age and have him teach them. If not, then he has no business wearing a Black Belt.

Although I'm sure my son couldnt teach a full class, and nor would I want him to at the age of 9, he will complete a form on his own in front of the class if others are just learning the form. He has done and will go to the front of the class to demonstrate. Karate has really helped his confidence, both at home, school and during his lessons.
I completely agree with other comments that martial arts arent just about sport or keeping fit. The respect and discpline taught is to be used in all aspects of life.

My son has a very good technique although he does lack the physical strength of older children and adults. Although I agree to a certain extent with your comments about the maturity needed to become a black belt, I feel my son has the attributes needed. As for son number 2, it will be a much longer road and there is a chance he may not complete it. If that is the case I wont be paying for him to attend.
As I have said, if they enjoy it that's all that really matters.
In the almost five years that my son has been doing martial arts I have never had to force him to go to a lesson.

momoyama

Jo.G wrote: »

Although I'm sure my son couldnt teach a full class, and nor would I want him to at the age of 9, he will complete a form on his own in front of the class if others are just learning the form.

Green belt standard in most styles. Granted, requirements will differ radically throughout styles. I'm talking about taking a small group of newbies and teaching them completely for a section of club material. Not just demonstrating. This is what I think 95% of Sensei will expect a black belt of any age to capable of doing. I know that NO eight year old that I've ever taught would have been capable of that.

Jo.G wrote: »

Karate has really helped his confidence, both at home, school and during his lessons.

Great. Fantastic. Really. This is what Martial Arts is all about. No sarcasm at all here.

Now, broad thoughts and not getting at your son personally at all, but the problem with confidence in this young a person is that it can manifest (or evolve into) arrogance. The problem is when they truly believe that they are that good. This is my point about maturity. Part of the problem is the connotations that come with "black belt".

Jo.G wrote: »

My son has a very good technique although he does lack the physical strength of older children and adults.

Great. Then he can develop proper technique rather than relying on strength.

Jo.G wrote: »

I feel my son has the attributes needed.

Again, I've never met your son. We're all different. I may well be selling him short. But as a rule of thumb, that he's eight years old means I completely disagree.

Jo.G wrote: »

As for son number 2, it will be a much longer road and there is a chance he may not complete it. If that is the case I wont be paying for him to attend.

Now you're missing the whole point of Budo. It's not the goal (black belt) that's important, it's the journey. Your younger son should stay at it (at a decent dojo, not one that awards Black Belts to eight year olds). If he only gets so far then that's OK, as he'll still gain from it.

Jo.G

I may well be selling him short.
I think you are.

Now you're missing the whole point of Budo.
I think you are missing my point. DS2 may well continue his martial arts training and acheive his black belt grade, whatever age that may be.
However, he has a different attitude to DS1 and likes instant results. Martial arts takes hard work and determination.
I know that DS2 will benefit from martial arts training however long he continues to do it. What I am saying is that he doesnt have the same attitude as DS1 and may not want to continue, he may become disinterested.
Martial Arts is definately DS1 'thing' as he isnt particularily sporty or into football. He took to it instantly and thoroughly enjoys it.
It may be that by Christmas DS2 will have moved on to other things, he also plays football and once he is old enough to play against other teams he may prefer to spend more time persuing that.
As I have said, if my kids enjoy it, I'm happy to pay.
If they dont enjoy it then they dont have to go and I wont pay the fees anymore.
Saying that, it wont be a decision made on a whim. If either of them decide martial arts is no longer for them, they will have to think about it seriously. Once they stop I wont be re-instating them again, they will have to wait until they are old enough to take and pay for themselves!

Jo.G

Green belt standard in most styles. Granted, requirements will differ radically throughout styles. I'm talking about taking a small group of newbies and teaching them completely for a section of club material. Not just demonstrating. This is what I think 95% of Sensei will expect a black belt of any age to capable of doing. I know that NO eight year old that I've ever taught would have been capable of that.

As a matter of curiosity, what is the youngest age you would accept as a black belt?
For example, if a child started at age 5yrs, trained each week, progressed and improved, completed and passed each graduation, would you keep them at the level below black belt until you felt them mature or old enough to pass the black belt graduation? As I believe your 5 year minimum training would still only place them at 10yrs.

By the way, I wouldnt want my 9 year old to teach a class. Nor would I want to pay for classes and then find out it had been run by a 9 year old.

He has taken the class for warm ups and through basic stances etc under the supervison of the instructor, as do all students heading for their first dan belt.

valk_scot

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

Hmm. Random question.

Do people believe that sending small children (say, under the age of 14) is effective from a self defence point of view?

I'm struggling to see how someone who might know a purely strike based art would fare in a real playground fight where there no rules or laws.

I would say that having an elder sibling of either sex would probably give a child more of an advantage...(1) because they've probably been scrapping with them since toddlerhood and are used to a bit of rough and tumble and (2) they've got someone to yell for!

But otherwise, I think any martial art or body contact sport teaches kids about balance, self discipline, body control and how not to collapse sobbing in a heap at the slightest bump. So yes, it has to be useful.