first:utility - new energy company launches

1carminestocky

Ammok
MoneySaving Newbie


Join Date: Mar 2009
Post Count: 1

They are coming top of the switching sites for me, but I do worry if they are just simply 'buying' new customers safe in the knowledge they more or less have them in their pocket for 24 months. This is in no way a large company so I do wonder what sort of costs they are experinecing installing meters in EVERY new customer's dwellings. Time will tell but I'm not going for it, personally.

NonGeographicalMan

jayvee5 wrote: »

Wholesale prices have come down - so prices have come down (as of Monday 24th November). First in the UK to act rather than talking about it. Now the cheapest standard electricity tariff in most regions (single and Economy 7). All savings from using the usage data and/or switching to a 3 rate tariff with cheaper evening rate (which can be in the range of 10-20%) are in addition to that. first:utility customer interviewed in Independent on Sunday claims £10-15 per month saving from having a smart meter supply so that is £120 - £180 additional savings per annum.

jayvee,

I am in theory a perfect match for this technology in terms of my situation as both my gas and electricity meters are in a locked basement storeroom of this former country house converted in to flats. I cannot get access to it without making an appointment with the management company to do so and because it is a self run residents management company and I am in dispute with them about the percentage reallocation of the basis of my service charges from those stated in my lease the people who can grant me access are always exceptionally objectionable about doing so. The net result is I never read the meter myself and must rely instead on estimated bills and Scottish Power to actually read the meters (they approach the management company to do this) about once a year.

This is even though I am on Scotish Power Online Energy Saver 4 tariff where I am supposed to provide my own meter readings each quarter. Howeer fortunately there is no penalty if one does not do so on Online Energy Saver 4 (unlike British Gas Click online tariffs) and they just estimate but not in your favour causing large credit balances to accrue until the next actual meter reading. It then also takes long calls to Scottish Power customer services to get the excess credit balance repaid.

However because the meter is in a communal basement store room and this is an old Victorian 1850s place with thick brick walls I do have concerns as to whether a signal will reach Vodafone or Orange from the basement room (there is one side of the basement that has a walkway in to an area that is at ground level with windows though so perhaps there will be a signal although that is a long way from the store room) and as I am on the cheapest possible tariff with Scottish Power I would not want to pay 20% more per annum for my energy to become one of your customers.

I am sure most people thinking of switching to you have a profile where they are already with the cheapest or near cheapest energy supplier. So for you to compare your prices with the default incumbent supplier's prices surely seems a nonsense as almost none of your potential customers will be with that supplier.

Regarding using energy off peak apart from my dishwasher and washing machine I don't really see that much scope as I have low energy lighbulbs everywhere and my Tivo hard drive PVR television recorder (see http://uk.tivo.com) needs to be able to run 24/7 to do its job and record the programs I want it to record. Ditto my fridge and freezer need to run 24/7 and not just at night. So of notable high consumption uses only dishwasher and washer/drier and possibly use of the oven seem to be in the frame as able to be being moved to off peak times by me (I can only move gas use to off peak by wearing thick woolly sweaters in the winter in the day time as I work from home). It seems a lot of trouble to go to so that I can get an energy cost that is only may be 10% instead of 25% more expensive than with Scottish Power? If using the majority of energy off peak meant my bill would actually be 10% less than anyone else who does not offer an off peak tariff then it would of course be worthwhile.

What I can't really understand is why this technology is not also being deployed by all energy companies as there are surely very long term major costs savings to be made by eliminating conevntional meter readers and only having to have a small residual meter maintenance workforce that attends to problems when your meters are no longer able to send a signal back to base? So why is this technology not an option with all the UK energy suppliers now rather than only one supplier. I expect you have no doubt been given an exclusive on the product for a set time in the UK and the manufacturer will then be able to sell the technology to other companies after that exclusive deal is up in due course?

The biggest thing that concerns me is that the technology is not transferable between suppliers as I would very happily pay £100 or so for a one off install of this technology if all the main energy companies would support it as a means of meter reading but if I have to have your high tech meter removed if I have to leave you (because your gas and electricty prices are uncompetitive) then it is surely really a no go? Also what is to stop you making the charge to reinstate the original meters £250 if you run in to financial difficulty and are no longer in an expansionist mode? Ditto what is to stop you pushing your energy and gas prices way up in conjunction with this?

I do find it a nonsense that this techology has not been sold to all the main energy suppliers as there are some customers like me who do not have direct access to their own meters (they are instead in locked cupboards or store rooms to which only the management company/landlord has access) who are in very urgent need of its deployment. The other nonsense of course is that even though you will send out someone with meter replacement skills they will not be allowed to relocate my gas and electricity meters in to the cupboard in the hall inside my apartment, instead of remaining in the basement store room, in one hit. Both the gas and electricity infrastructure network operators (or their appointed contractors) charge quite outrageous amounts (like several hundred pounds for each meter) to relocate the meter along a supply cable that already exists and does not need any new cabling installed. This is why I have never done it despite the monstrous inconvenience caused ever since the residents management company locked the store room in which the meters are located about 7 years ago so I do not have access to it on any reasonable basis (including not having access to my gas isolation handle which I believe is illegal.). There is a circuit breaker box with a main on/off switch in my hallway for the electricity (even though there is another on/off switch next to the meter in the basement) but no equivalent of that for the gas where the only isolation handle is in the basement store room.

Any thoughts you can give on why this technology is only available from your company and what you are doing to address the legitimate concerns of your potential customers that this will make it harder for them to shop around for the lowest possible energy cost (despite the much greater convenience of reliable remote energy monitoring) would be greatly appreciated.

richardc1983

jayvee5 wrote: »

Careful to compare apples with apples here - if you want the cheapest electricity plus poor service; estimated bills; energy companies having your money in their bank or issuing huge invoices when you use more than estimated (which totals 75% of complaints) etc. then you will get it cheaper.

first:utility service is clearly not price led (and they do have their tariffs online now) - but if you saved 5% moving to a 3 rate tariff, saved another 5% by moving consumption to the evening (post-8pm_ and then 10-15% reduction from having daily online information on consumption (by half hour period) then you will be at the level you are now paying AND will have reduced carbon consumption by 10-15%. Not for everyone - but I think most will agree an 100% accurate bill each month with online usage statistics isn't a bad place to start for the energy sector.

Would you pay an estimated mobile phone bill with no call details??

The point is you can submit a correct reading if it is an estimated bill you receive.

richardc1983

jayvee5 wrote: »

Premier
With respect, I still don't think you get smart meters - they are a two-way communications device collecting electricity consumption data 48 times a day - where a 'big six' energy company collects it once a year.

Why should anyone have to phone in readings?? - it saves the incumbents money which they pay to their shareholders??? Also they don't send any analysis back - no comparative data you can use??

When they put their prices up how many units are you charged at the old rate and how many at the new much higher rate? They pretty much decide! A smart meter would be accurate to within 30 minutes. How much is that alone worth?

With the readings you can interrogate daily data online to see where you are consuming electicity, your base rates etc.. Research shows again and again that if you have comparative data you can act.

I check my usage and data by using a whole house energy meter that I bought for £30!! And it will work with whatever energy supplier I choose to use!

richardc1983

jayvee5 wrote: »

Premier

p.s. Answer for all - If a customer gets a smart meter installed and moves to another provider it becomes a 'dumb meter' again. Data comes from the energy provider having collected it using the mobile network.

I think its a load of rubbish because when a customer has paid to have this meter fitted it wont work with another supplier so thats a waste of money it itself.

richardc1983

jayvee5 wrote: »

If the Energy Savings Trust are prepared to say they can save up to 15% - I don't understand why I can't??

Ref power display meter - doesn't stack up in the research - energy display units/OWLS don't hold comparative data so you can't do month/month day/day hour/hour comparisons. Research shows it has to be over time as people reduce energy when they have something to compare against - they set themselves goals.

Actually your wrong. I have a wattson energy meter and it does data for the whole year for as long as you started collecting data. Looks funky and I dont have to climb to the back of the cupboard to check the usage!

And they are actually available to the customers it seems (a version of energy monitor)

http://www.first-utility.com/residential/residential-homedisplay.htm

richardc1983

Cardew wrote: »

This meter:

http://uk.aldi.com/uk/html/offers/2867_7248.htm

costs £6.99 and measures the cumulative consumption of all plug in appliances. i.e. plug in your fridge freezer and leave it for 24 hours(or any period of time) and it will tell you exactly how much electricity it has used.

So you are aware of the consumption of the majority of appliances and the contribution they make to your bill.

That of course is something 'your' smart meter cannot do!

If I really do want to know my daily consumption I can look at my 'old fashioned' meter, after all that measures down to 0.1 kWh.

To expect people to pay a premium on their electricity for the advantage of a meter that gives a detailed breakdown of overall consumption, but saves nothing, is naive.

I have a computer on my car that gives me a breakdown of average fuel consumption and 'instantaneous' consumption. If the car manufacturer claimed that this saved me 10% to 15% on my fuel consumption, then I suggest the Advertising Standards Authority would have plenty to say!!

I love it when Cardew gives his opinion! No beating about the bush!

NonGeographicalMan

richardc1983 wrote: »

I think its a load of rubbish because when a customer has paid to have this meter fitted it wont work with another supplier so thats a waste of money it itself.

In your last extremely self absorbed five posts in a row within a few minutes you have totally ignored the points I made in my last preceding post about myself and the up to 2 or 3 million households like myself where our meters are not inside our homes but in a locked landlord store cupboard and to which obtaining access is either difficult or near impossible.

Is the wireless sender collar on any Watts On and similar self fit meters 811N? Also is it battery powered or does it require a feed from a mains socket? Either way a mobile phone transmitter is significantly more powerful than a Wifi signal and more likely to escape from a locked away store cupboard that may also be at basement level. Also the First Utility product is a proper certified meter replacement and so 100% accurate, unilke Watts On and co which only try to detect a field from the incoming power supply to guess power consumption rather than having the actual power supply pass through them to measure it entirely accurately. The energy meters from Maplin and co that plug in to single wall sockets are of course potentially near 100% accurate as they have the actual current pass through them while Watts On and co do not.

So with great respect you really seem to miss the point here and why having the actual energy read at all times is such an advance for all those of us with no direct access to our own meters. I would however be interested to know why there is seemingly no time related element to the gas consumption measurement.of the First Utility product as surely 4pm to 8pm would also be peak time for gas use so the company could encourage its customers to heat their homes up before they get home at 4pm and not reboost the level of heating until say 8pm to avoid using gas at the peak time of day?

1carminestocky

You are still in effect committing yourself for 24months to a seemingly small company with what must be very large installation costs, and, crucially, NOT on any sort of fixed or capped deal. Meaning they can do what they like with their prices in that 2 year period and, short of buying your way out, nothing you can do about it. We've already seen with the npower reductions thread what tieing yourself into one of these companies results in - being bobby shaftoed....

But, of course, each to their own. And I can see why, in your circs, you are severely tempted.

NonGeographicalMan

1carminestocky wrote: »

You are still in effect committing yourself for 24months to a seemingly small company with what must be very large installation costs, and, crucially, NOT on any sort of fixed or capped deal. Meaning they can do what they like with their prices in that 2 year period and, short of buying your way out, nothing you can do about it.

You can leave First Utility any time without further penalty if you pay them the £50 uninstallation fee for their meters as far as I can see. That doesn't seem a terribly big disincentive to me to leaving them when my combined annual gas and electricity spend is around £850. In fact as long as somebody else's tariff gives me cashback of £50 or close to it for a dual fuel move there is no cost at all. Or even if Cashback does not cover all the uninstall cost the price saving from a substantially cheaper tariff elsewhere with another supplier will do.

My only concern would be that they are probably entitled to increase the exit fee to another amount at any time on 30 days notice or whatever, although I would have thought that this would constitute a significant change in contract terms that would allow me to leave straight away at the old exit fee if they did so.

In the real world unless this company goes bust they are in fact going to be desperate to stop any installed customer leaving and they will know that £50 is not a very big disincentive to moving on from them. Also Consumer Voice (who have replaced Energy Watch) are going to be pretty interested if the penalty fees for uninstallation were made excessive as this would be a direct interference with the operation of competition on energy price in the marketplace.

Compared to 18 months contracts with BT and TalkTalk where you pay the whole of the rest of the contract if you terminate in say month 3 (even if it is because you have to sell your house because you lose your job) a charge of £50 for leaving them does not look that unreasonable. Also First Utility want to build their business and they know that if they change to crazy prices their customers will leave them as anyone fitting one of these meters is bound to be very price and energy consumption conscious. Indeed after the initial gimmick period to get a few technophile early adopters on board they have now changed their price levels to ones that will pull in many customers on a purely price based argument.

It also seems obvious that these meters are going to be installed by other energy suppliers in due course and that First Utility just have an exclusive for a limited time period. So in a year or two's time I bet you will be able to move to several other companies and also have this meter read there using the mobile phone signal........