Sacked - Now Helpless

CheekyLittleMonkey

Simon, if your intention is to appeal against this decision, then just write a letter of appeal, do not forwarn them of all the issues that you have with the case as forewarned is forearmed and you are giving them knowledge and TIME to come up with tangible answers to your queries. Discuss your issues only with all or any of the following: your Union Rep, your local CAB (these are the really really good and not as dire as they once was billed as) ACAS. Just set a time and date for appeal. If you can get a work collegue or union to accompany your wife on the day of appeal, this would be very useful. My sister has just been exactly in the same position although she got suspended first and then dismissed (this was with the NHS and a supossed medical error, which she never ever did). Keep all correspondence copies from yourself and from them. Keep copies of fact finding missions and meeting minutes. Read up on employment law on the web and if you can get yourself an employment solicitor that would be a bonus. Send a letter to the company with a £10 cheque for an SAR (subject access request) asking for all the info on file pertaining to your wifes employment from day one, all emails, everything, in the body of your letter mention the freedom of information act and data protection act for individuals. Seems that decent genuine folk are getting bullied, victimised and discriminated more and more these days. In Feb of this year, my sis appealed and took it to tribunal (with my help)...the case was upheld and she won it, she won her job back, then she put a claim in for damages, victimisation, loss of earnings, stress etc, she recieved a pay off in 6 figures. Since she has been back at work now, she is constantly looking over her shoulder and has to remain vigilant at all times. The supervisor who raised the incident against her was the supervisor who made the medical error who tried to cover it up and blame others. She is now looking for another job (but difficult in these unpredictable times). Good luck. Don't give them any ammunition to fire bullets at you, get them off guard, don't give them time to prepare anything. x

Reggie_Rebel

Dear XXXXXX,


I am writing to inform you that I wish to appeal against the decision to summarily dismiss me made on 26th August 2008 as communicated to me in your letter of 26th August 2008.

I look forward to hearing from you with a suitable date for the hearing

---

That's all I'd put. Like other posters have said, don't give them any bullets.

When they come back with a date ask who will be present. Insist on a minute taker who will not be involved in the decision making, preferably someone from HR

Butterfliesarepretty

At the company I used to work for before taking vol redundancy (Steria UK ltd) I was on the phone ten minutes while while working on my pc doing work talking to my boyfriend quietly. I worked on flexitime so my lunch was half twelve till one or could be other times and sometimes I stayed at my desk lunching. Before working for steria we all worked for british telecom who were very relaxed about small personal calls so when we came to steria after being sold off by BT and retaining our BT terms and conditions including flexitime and leave we thought it ok to carry on like that.

While I was on the phone my team leader interrupted me and told me to get off the phone as I should be working. So I ended the call and my colleagues were all shocked at her instruction (I was very upset and crying saying 'I was working as well as talking and I said thanks very much for asking me if i was working instead of just assuming' I ran off into the toilets to calm down. Afterwards my colleagues came in and all said that they didn't understand why she picked on me because they also had been on the phone while working and that this was accepted before. Then I asked to see my manager and she brought my team leader in and she explained to my team leader how we worked at BT and that I was a very loyal and committed worker and hardly made any personal calls and that it was a one off - which it was as I always used my phone at home for personal calls. My manager had worked with me for 15 years and my team leader was new from a different company and had known me a few months. She then apologised for upsetting me and I apologised too but after that I never trusted her again and she continued picking on certain people. Eventually she got moved to another dept because she was unpopular and could be awful.

To me ten minutes on the phone is ok as long as you are still working. that company should never have gone as far as sacking your wife, she was upset at the time and they should have given time for her to pull herself together.
I have refused to do something from my top boss 'an old job I loved and did well and then I was moved to a different account' and yet two years later they asked me to cover for someone and I said 'no way, you pulled me off that job i loved why should I do it now I got no thanks for it' and she accepted my explanation an asked someone else to do it.:rotfl:

simon4amiee

Does anyonw know if you are allowed to record an appeal hearing instead of someone taking notes, my wife would like to record it so we can then write up the minutes from this!

simon4amiee

quality, after sending the appeal request letter (above) the company swnt in writing her greivance decision to withdraw the verbal warning, we will be keeping the letter as it is date suspiciously 26th August, the date she was told she was sacked (she got THAT letter), but yet was posted on the 29th August 2 days after receiveing the appeal letter saying she hadnt received notification in writing of the appeal!

SuziQ

I would get on the ACAS helpline,when I was an employer I found them fantastic both for advising us but I also used to tell my employees to use them!

I think the company seems to have the right of dismissal in this case-we had to dismiss a driver who refused a reasonable request and although he fought it he lost.
The only thing I will say is that the time scales don't fit with what we had to do-this seems very rushed as we had a couple of 14 day response peiods we had to follow,maybe employment law has changed in the last 2 years but I doubt it! As employers dealing with someone who was bragging to his colleagues how he 'had got away with it' and carried on refusing to carry out reasonable requests,it frustrated us that it took us 6 weeks to dismiss him,whereas it has all been so quick with your wife.

We were also told by ACAS that even though we had certain things in our contracts of employment listed as 'gross misconduct', a tribunal would not always agree with us and could find in favour of the claimant.
We had 1 driver who worked for us less than a month,swore at our clients and refused to come into work one day.We He then took holiday without informing us (1 month!) and never answered our letters after his return. He took us to a tribunal,and was awarded a weeks notice and a weeks holiday pay! I mention this just to show that things are not always cut and dried,especially where a tribunal is concerned.

SuziQ

I would get on the ACAS helpline,when I was an employer I found them fantastic both for advising us but I also used to tell my employees to use them!

I think the company seems to have the right of dismissal in this case-we had to dismiss a driver who refused a reasonable request and although he fought it he lost.
The only thing I will say is that the time scales don't fit with what we had to do-this seems very rushed as we had a couple of 14 day response peiods we had to follow,maybe employment law has changed in the last 2 years but I doubt it! As employers dealing with someone who was bragging to his colleagues how he 'had got away with it' and carried on refusing to carry out reasonable requests,it frustrated us that it took us 6 weeks to dismiss him,whereas it has all been so quick with your wife.

We were also told by ACAS that even though we had certain things in our contracts of employment listed as 'gross misconduct', a tribunal would not always agree with us and could find in favour of the claimant.
We had 1 driver who worked for us less than a month,swore at our clients and refused to come into work one day.We never got to speak to him He then took holiday without informing us (1 month!) and never answered our letters after his return. He took us to a tribunal,and was awarded a weeks notice and a weeks holiday pay! I mention this just to show that things are not always cut and dried,especially where a tribunal is concerned.

simon4amiee

the mrs just had the letter through for the appeal, and it falls on the days she starts her NEW job, cant beleive she got 2 jobs within 4-5 days of losing hers. She is still going to appeal and go through the motions, nothing to lose and all that.

simon4amiee

Statement – A**** E****

The reasons I am appealing the decision summarily dismiss me from the company are as follows:

• Mitigating circumstances preceding a request to carry out reasonable management instructions.

• • On Monday 11th August 10-15 minutes before my lunch break, I was asked once to move to another line, with the break looming I continued to help clean the line I was at, during my lunch break I had to contact the hospital as I had during that morning received a letter saying that my results regarding tests relating to my multiple miscarriages, had been put back over 2 months to the end of October. Having already waited several months, and due to the nature of the test results, I was very upset, and angry. I decided to contact the hospital during my lunch break to find out the reason the results appointment had been put back. Several people outside clearly heard me talking to the hospital including KG as I had the phone on loud speaker. Having gotten through to the main reception and not having a reference number due to moving house, the hospital had difficulty transferring me from one department to another and locating my records, this went on and on until eventually the call went ten minutes beyond my lunch break. Being messed around by the hospital only added to the anger and upset I was feeling already. Upon my return to work I was immediately called into the office by my supervisor Linda and was told I was to be given an official verbal warning for using my phone during working hours. Please note that this was an official verbal warning, and I was not notified of a meeting, nor was I given any time to prepare for the verbal warning which was a disciplinary matter. At the time I am thinking everything is going against me that day, and I am getting more and more upset by the days events. I then returned to the line to carry on cleaning, when Linda who had just given me a verbal warning again ordered me to another line, at which point regrettably snapped and refused to carry out her instruction. I felt very angry, I didn’t think L was sympathetic knowing my circumstances, however since the incident myself and L had a clear the air talk, and have gotten on very well since, and I now feel she understood my reaction.

• Failure to mention ‘serious insubordination’ in the original letter inviting me to a disciplinary hearing

• • In preparation for the Disciplinary meeting on Thursday 21st August 2008, I was never notified in the letter of Notice of Disciplinary meeting dated 18th August or was aware that I was alleged to in breach of ‘serious insubordination’ which in the company disciplinary procedures is a separate allegation from ‘refusal to carry out reasonable management instructions’ and as so never had the time or opportunity to prepare for this which I was then told on your letter dated 26th August was one of the reasons for my dismissal and the hearing was to give me an opportunity to provide a satisfactory explanation for this.
  • Also included in this letter you state without my assistance on the urgent order “there was a potential for it to be delayed” and “caused inconvenience” relating to my refusal, which does not imply that the order was delayed or the company affected.

• The reliance on a rescinded verbal warning and an expired final written warning in making the decision

• • In the letter dated 7th 2006, it states that my warning “will be placed on my personal file but will disregarded for disciplinary purposes after a period of 12 months provided my conduct improves”. Although it doesn’t clearly say anyway on the letter, I can only assume anything relating to that disciplinary hearing is irrelevant and should have been disregarded. It also states ‘the likely consequence of further misconduct of this nature is dismissal from the company”, again the letter does not clearly state how long this period is, which could be 40 years, I can only assume that it is for a period of 12 months as stated. Furthermore you state ‘The timescales within which the improvement is required is immediate’. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I had no disciplinary meetings for the 2 years following this, and in that time I was promoted from general laborer to line leader, clearly showing that in fact the improvement was immediate, and that the company valued my work. Also as mentioned earlier the circumstances leading up to the incident ‘refusal to carry out reasonable management instructions’ involved a verbal warning, which was then rescinded by the company, this shows that the company understood the circumstances involved and the frame of mind I must have been in. I would also like to note that although this verbal warning was rescinded I received no written confirmation of the decision until the 1st September 2008, which was 4 days after I received the letter by hand of my dismissal. It was only when I notified you in my letter to you on the 27th August that you did not give me written notification of my grievance that you sent this dated the 26th August, yet the envelope date stamped the 1st September 2008. Although I don’t fully understand procedures at work, I am unsure if the correct procedure was following in this instance regarding the verbal warning.

• No details regarding a similar recent Gross misconduct case involving another member of staff

• • You also mention “As we have had a similar but unrelated incident within the company recently that led to dismissal we have to remain consistent and as a consequence”, I think that although similar every case is different and I suspect that the other case does not involve circumstances involving 3 miscarriages and as such there is no evidence that the Company is acting 'consistently' in ‘similar circumstances’.

can someone pick the bones from this, i think ive covered most and this will be submitted at the appeal.

mymatebob

simon4amiee wrote: »

Statement – A**** E****

The reasons I am appealing the decision summarily dismiss me from the company are as follows:

• Mitigating circumstances preceding a request to carry out reasonable management instructions.

• • On Monday 11th August 10-15 minutes before my lunch break, I was asked once to move to another line, with the break looming I continued to help clean the line I was at, there is no clear reason given as to why you did not move when requested. Just because it was some time before your lunchbreak does not seem to be a good reason. Can you explain your decision to ignore the instruction here in a better way? during my lunch break I had to contact the hospital as I had during that morning received a letter saying that my results regarding tests relating to my multiple miscarriages, had been put back over 2 months to the end of October. Having already waited several months, and due to the nature of the test results, I was very upset, and angry. I decided to contact the hospital during my lunch break to find out the reason the results appointment had been put back. Several people outside clearly heard me talking to the hospital including KG, is this person relevant in some way? Are you trying to identify a potential witness to your state of mind? as I had the phone on loud speaker. Having gotten through to the main reception and not having a reference number due to moving house, the hospital had difficulty transferring me from one department to another and locating my records, this went on and on until eventually the call went ten minutes beyond my lunch break. How long is the lunch break? How long did the call take? If you started talking at the beginning of your lunch break and the call took over an hour the company may not be too impressed with that but in the circumstances should be a bit more understanding. Being messed around by the hospital only added to the anger and upset I was feeling already. Upon my return to work I was immediately called into the office by my supervisor L and was told I was to be given an official verbal warning for using my phone during working hours. Please note that this was an official verbal warning, and I was not notified of a meeting, nor was I given any time to prepare for the verbal warning which was a disciplinary matter.
  • Does this go against company procedures for a verbal ? If so mention that. At the time I am thinking everything is going against me that day, and I am getting more and more upset by the days events. I then returned to the line to carry on cleaning, when L who had just given me a verbal warning again ordered me to another line, at which point regrettably snapped and refused to carry out her instruction. Not sure you have explained why you refused an order from a superior I felt very angry, I didn’t think L was sympathetic knowing my circumstances, however since the incident myself and L had a clear the air talk, and have gotten on very well since, and I now feel she understood my reaction.

• Failure to mention ‘serious insubordination’ in the original letter inviting me to a disciplinary hearing

• • In preparation for the Disciplinary meeting on Thursday 21st August 2008, I was never notified in the letter of Notice of Disciplinary meeting dated 18th August or was aware that I was alleged to in breach of ‘serious insubordination’ which in the company disciplinary procedures is a separate allegation from ‘refusal to carry out reasonable management instructions’ and as so never had the time or opportunity to prepare for this which I was then told on your letter dated 26th August was one of the reasons for my dismissal and the hearing was to give me an opportunity to provide a satisfactory explanation for this.
  • Also included in this letter you state without my assistance on the urgent order “there was a potential for it to be delayed” and “caused inconvenience” relating to my refusal, which does not imply that the order was delayed or the company affected. Leave this out - the potential is enough to be reprimanded in some way, whether or not it actually happened the management allege that you could have jeopardised production. They will not take kindly to an attitude of "but nothing happened so it was okay"

• The reliance on a rescinded verbal warning and an expired final written warning in making the decision

• • In the letter dated 7th 2006, it states that my warning “will be placed on my personal file but will disregarded for disciplinary purposes after a period of 12 months provided my conduct improves”. Although it doesn’t clearly say anyway on the letter, I can only assume anything relating to that disciplinary hearing is irrelevant and should have been disregarded. It also states ‘the likely consequence of further misconduct of this nature is dismissal from the company”, again the letter does not clearly state how long this period is, which could be 40 years, I can only assume that it is for a period of 12 months as stated. Furthermore you state ‘The timescales within which the improvement is required is immediate’. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I had no disciplinary meetings for the 2 years following this, and in that time I was promoted from general laborer to line leader, clearly showing that in fact the improvement was immediate, and that the company valued my work. Also as mentioned earlier the circumstances leading up to the incident ‘refusal to carry out reasonable management instructions’ involved a verbal warning, which was then rescinded by the company, this shows that the company understood the circumstances involved and the frame of mind I must have been in. I would also like to note that although this verbal warning was rescinded I received no written confirmation of the decision until the 1st September 2008, which was 4 days after I received the letter by hand of my dismissal. It was only when I notified you in my letter to you on the 27th August that you did not give me written notification of my grievance that you sent this dated the 26th August, yet the envelope date stamped the 1st September 2008. Although I don’t fully understand procedures at work, I am unsure if the correct procedure was following in this instance regarding the verbal warning.

• No details regarding a similar recent Gross misconduct case involving another member of staff

• • You also mention “As we have had a similar but unrelated incident within the company recently that led to dismissal we have to remain consistent and as a consequence”, I think that although similar every case is different and I suspect that the other case does not involve circumstances involving 3 miscarriages and as such there is no evidence that the Company is acting 'consistently' in ‘similar circumstances’. I think this is a red herring as you have no knowledge of what the circumstances were surrounding the other case. The management do and they feel they have acted accordingly. Personally I would not bring this into your appeal.

can someone pick the bones from this, i think ive covered most and this will be submitted at the appeal.

I guess you are appealing against the severity of the punishment, using external factors which influenced you OHs behaviour that day.

You seem to have covered most things but having re-read the letter I feel that although the company may have placed on record the verbal warning for a fixed period of time, there is a clear indication from them that any such further incidents would result in dismissal, which is what has now happened.