Sacked - Now Helpless

simon4amiee

This is my 1st attempt of a letter of appeal, advice please!



Dear XXXXXX,


I am writing to tell you that I wish to appeal against the decision of dismissal made on 26th August 2008 provided to me in your letter on 26th August 2008.


This action is being considered with regard to the following circumstances:


You state ‘failure to carry out reasonable management instructions’, this I feel was unreasonable having just been involved in disciplinary hearing with the Supervisor asking me to carry out these instructions. I received no time to prepare or was ever notified in writing, I had just received an official verbal warning and as such my refusal being brought on by the stress of earlier disciplinary action & grievance, and that in the light of my previous work record the belief that the sanction of dismissal was disproportionate.


You mention ‘serious insubordination’, which wasn’t mentioned in the original letter of Notice of Disciplinary Meeting, also an act of insubordination that has caused only an 'inconvenience' is not severe enough to warrant summary dismissal - the normal phrase you would see as a definition of Gross Misconduct would be a 'persistent' failure to follow reasonable management instructions.


The Company relies on a recinded (and unrelated) verbal warning and an 'expired' warning.

No details are given of the other Gross Misconduct dismissal so there is no evidence that the Company is acting 'consistently'


I would like to request all correspondence and notes on my permanent record to the purposes of this appeal.


I am entitled to a hearing to discuss this matter; also I am entitled, if I wish, to be accompanied by another work colleague or my trade union representative.


Please reply within (not more than 28 if subject to UK law) days of the date of this letter.


Yours sincerely

Alexandria

I am not sure what the law states as don't have my files with me at present but 3 days seems very short to allow for an appeal to be requested. At my work we give 28 days.
Also we would not allow a Manager who was involved in the initial factfind or incident to be present during the hearing unless giving a personal statement. There is an indication she was involved in the decision making process by her presence. This would be contentious I believe.

Buttercup.x

Ok I have been in the same boat Gross Misconduct different reasons though,

I was also not given any notice for the disciplinary well l it was 24 hours notice which i brought up in my dismissal meeting and was told that 24 hours is the minimum notice they had to to give me.

However they do need to notify her in writing at least 24 hours before the Disciplinary meeting, Now if it was the initial meeting before the disciplinary they are not needed to give Notice, (the investigation meeting).

She needs to get some evidence if possible maybe ask them to check her previous work record, (has she met targets? and always followed out instructions in previous times?)

Now i know this is hard but im not being harsh im saying this from experience, maybe stating that the reason she refused to follow out instructions wouldn't be such a good idea, i mean she can mention it but don't use that as the whole excuse. (its not an excuse i know) But the employer could see this as if the same thing happens again in the future would she again refuse to follow an instruction?

I mentioned that i was having personal problems and my mind wasn't fully on the job that particular day, I had made many errors and i asked them to check my previous work record and work file to confirm all this. I had NEVER once been in trouble for anything before this incident but the original Disciplinary meeting was a shambles!!

The Minutes were incorrect, The manager taking the meeting and the minuet taker chose to go and get a brew and spent 5 minuets deciding on if i should keep my job or not. he refused to accept that i had not made any mistakes before this particular day but choose to dismiss me. and also they had barley any evidence against me.

I appealed against the decision and mentioned the reasons in which i was appealing,

1) My work record was not taken into consideration what so ever
2) The minutes from the Investigation Prior to the Disciplinary were wrong. and the disciplinary taker (my manager) refused to allow me to outline the errors
3) The 5 minutes it took them to make the decision was not professional, nor Taken Seriously enough as they spent this time drinking coffee and smoking outside.
4) The Manager that had taken the meeting was not interested in hearing my comments or explanations for my actions that particular day.

now this was just some of the reasons i outlined and obviously it was better written than this, but it was 2 years ago now and ive lost my copy of the appeal letter.

if she doesnt win her appeal then take it to a tribunal she has he right considering her length of service with the company

good luck

Buttercup.x

Oh i was to given 2 weeks to appeal 3 days is NOT enough but that was the time given for me.

mrsb2100_2

Hello. I am so sorry to hear of your wife's firing. I have been in her shoes and also been sacked for gross misconduct, although I have to admit I was to blame even though I didnt realise that I was at fault. However, 15 years after the event, I can say that for me, it was the best thing that could ever happen. I wasnt the brightest spark either - obviouisly - but that experience taught me a valuable lesson and made me the person I am today. First things first - go and sign on. You might not get anything, but the fact you're registered as unemployed helps to 'wipe out' your record. (Most places want to know the last 3 things you did and if you can note down 'unemployed', it certainly helps) Also, if anyone can give you a personal reference, that can go a long way.

Next, go to the temp agencies and see what can be done. It might be the best they can offer is something you would never have considered at the time - dosent matter, take whatever is offered and be honest with the agencies - they've seen it all before and can and will try to help! But make sure that you're firm in that you've done nothing wrong! And make sure you appeal! Plus, that's another thing to help 'wipe' this event off the record. You can still put down that you were employed by this Company, but hopefully, after a period of temping, your experience wont be as relevant.

Although it wont come naturally, at any employment, dont be too honest about what's happened ... I used to say I had a difference of opinion and felt I had to leave. I know it's not entirely honest, but it was the only way round it at the time. Never tell them you were sacked. It raises red flags all the time and really dosent help (sorry managers and empoyers!)

Make sure you appeal and also approach ACAS. I failed my appeal, and didnt go to ACAS but wish I had have done because I'm sure they could have helped. It took a good 4 - 5 months to get back into permanent employment and that was during the last recession, so that always looks good when you're looking at different types of work.

mrsb2100_2

One last thing to consider ... it really isnt the end of the world even though it feels like the entire universe is collaspsing on you. It'll take time, but she really will come out the stronger person because of it.

Dont forget, a butterfly has to struggle to get out of the chrysalis ... and if it didnt, it wouldnt survive. This is just the 'chrysalis' period of her life.

Good luck and I wish you all the very best.

mymatebob

simon4amiee wrote: »

This is my 1st attempt of a letter of appeal, advice please!



Dear XXXXXX,


I am writing to tell you that I wish to appeal against the decision of dismissal made on 26th August 2008 provided to me in your letter on 26th August 2008.


This action is being considered with regard to the following circumstances:


You state ‘failure to carry out reasonable management instructions’, this I feel was unreasonable having just been involved in disciplinary hearing with the Supervisor asking me to carry out these instructions. I assume you are trying to say that the supervisor should not have been at the disciplinary meeting? Not very clear from the wording
I received no time to prepare or was ever notified in writing,
What does their procedure say here? How much notice, in writing should they have given your OH? I had just received an official verbal warning and as such my refusal being brought on by the stress of earlier disciplinary action & grievance, and that in the light of my previous work record the belief that the sanction of dismissal was disproportionate. Does this mean that prior to this disciplinary your OH had a verbal warning, which was recorded on her record quite recently?


You mention ‘serious insubordination’, which wasn’t mentioned in the original letter of Notice of Disciplinary Meeting, I am unclear now as you say she didn't get a letter but then mention a letter? also an act of insubordination that has caused only an 'inconvenience' is not severe enough to warrant summary dismissal in your opinion, what a company thinks are grounds for dismissal may be up to them, as long as they have spelled it out somewhere- the normal phrase you would see as a definition of Gross Misconduct would be a 'persistent' failure to follow reasonable management instructions.


The Company relies on a recinded (and unrelated) verbal warning and an 'expired' warning. If it is still on record then I am afraid it will not have expired

No details are given of the other Gross Misconduct dismissal so there is no evidence that the Company is acting 'consistently' No details need to be given as that matter is between the company and the other individual


I would like to request all correspondence and notes on my permanent record to the purposes of this appeal. Quite right


I am entitled to a hearing to discuss this matter; also I am entitled, if I wish, to be accompanied by another work colleague or my trade union representative.


Please reply within (not more than 28 if subject to UK law) days of the date of this letter. A bit antagonistic.




Yours sincerely

Does she remain on the payroll while this process rolls on?
Worth checking

simon4amiee

RELATING TO THE ABOVE: I have only till tomorrow to appeal; there are a number of issues I think having read through the procedures and letters.

They mention recent disciplinary meeting where she had a verbal warning for using a phone in works time, however she received no such letter in writing stating she had had a verbal warning, she put in a grievance and the verbal was overturned due to the circumstances.

They mention past insubordination which happed in July 2006, which I'm sure she was on a year final warning, this time came and went yet was still mentioned.

She failed in the original meeting to out her point accords, she isn’t the brightest of sparks bless her, so I am writing an appeal based on the circumstances surrounding her dismissal.

Firstly her frame of mind at the time, we had been waiting 3-4 months for test results back from the doctors, and on Monday 11th August we received a letter saying the appointment was now put back to late October, as we have had 3 pregnancies and 3 miscarriages, we both had intensive testing done on our bloods/chromosomes etc, and we were very keen to know if anything was abnormal. My wife rang the hospital during her lunch break (12.30-1.00pm) on 11th August 2008, due to being passed to person to person (she had it on loud speaker with witnesses), the phone call went 10 mins into her working hours (1.10pm). At 1.11pm she was called into an office on told she was going to be given an official verbal warning for using her phone in work time and coming back from lunch late, my wife tried to explain but fell on deaf ears (no written confirmation of the verbal warning was ever received).

As a result at 1.20pm on resumption of her work she was then ordered to another part of the production line by her supervisor who had just given her the verbal. My wife argued that as line leader it was her job to help other to clear their area before moving on, the supervisor asked her again to stop what she was doing and move to another part of the production line which my wife refused.

the next day 12th August 2008, my wife sent a letter of grievance into the company regarding the verbal warning, explaining her reasons, and the fact it has never happened before in 3-4 years, and that any time lost she would be more than willing to make up.

On Monday 18th August she received a letter asking her to attend a grievance appeal meeting on Thursday 21st August @ 10.30am, to which she attended. The meeting I told went well and the Verbal Warning was rescinded due to the circumstances, and she was just told that using a phone in works time is a health and safety issue and she should restrict her time on it to her breaks.

Also on Monday 18th August 2008, she received another letter which was 'Notice of disciplinary Meeting, which said she had to attend on Thursday 21stAugust @ 4.00pm stating 'As you will be aware from our discussion on 18 August 2008 it is alleged that you refused to carry out reasonable management instructions which is viewed by the Company to be Gross Misconduct. As this is considered a gross misconduct offence and if found to be so at your disciplinary hearing it could result in dismissal. As this is a formal disciplinary meeting, you may be accompanied by a work colleague or a Trade Union Official. To assist you prepare for the meeting, I enclose a copy of the Company's Disciplinary Procedure'

During this time my wife was not suspended and continued to work, on 21st August 2008, she attended the meeting with a witness, she admitted and accepted she refused to carry out a supervisors orders, but didn’t really get across why she did so due to her angry and upset frame of mind at the time. She was told verbally she would get a reply the following day.

On 22nd August she was then told they hadn’t come to a decision and that she would have to waiting until after the bank holiday Tuesday 26th August 2008.

On Tuesday 26th August 2008, she received her answer and the letter stating the following.

'Further to the Disciplinary hearing on Thursday 21 august 2008 which was attended by you, myself in my capacity as production manager, Kay Briggs minute taker - (who happens to be her supervisor in question), I am writing to regrettably confirm your summary dismissal from the company.

The purpose of the above hearing was to give you an opportunity to provide a satisfactory explanation form the following area of misconduct which the Company considered to be the gravest and utmost severity.

- Serious insubordination
- Failure to carry out reasonable management instructions

At the hearing you said that you failed to carry out the instruction, that was asked of you several times, which was to move to another filling line to assist in the preparation of an urgent order, on the grounds that you wished to remain on the line and clear the mess that had been made. You have confirmed during the meeting that you are ware that such action could be construed as Gross misconduct.

After careful consideration I find your explanation wholly unacceptable because irrespective of the duties you felt you needed to perform, there was a much more pressing need to attend the urgent production of the Ready Mixed Adhesive that your supervisor had been asked to prepare. Without your assistance this order there was a potential for it to be delayed. It is up to the supervisor to prioritize the production cycle not you.

Your failure to Co-operate, and indeed the manner of your refusal, caused inconvenience and other, less able staff then had to be used instead. With you previous experience of failing to acknowledge and undertake instruction that led to disciplinary action being taken against you, would have suggested that you disobeyed these instructions knowing that it could lead to further disciplinary action. With your previous history of insubordination as stated above I am unconvinced that similar issues will not reoccur in the future.

Furthermore, I find you actions amount to gross misconduct. As we have had a similar but unrelated incident within the company recently that led to dismissal we have to remain consistent and as a consequence. Therefore, I have no alternative but to summarily dismiss you from the company. This means that you are not entitled to notice or pay in lieu of notice.

Your date of dismissal is, therefore 26th August 2008. Your P45 and any monies owing to you including holiday pay and outstanding wages will be forwarded to your home address.

Finally you have the right to appeal against you Dismissal. If you wish to exercise this right, you should write to XXXXXXX, Managing Director, within 3 working days stating your reasons for such an appeal.

simon4amiee

LETTER OF APPEAL AMENDED:

"Dear XXXXXX,


I am writing to inform you that I wish to appeal against the decision to summarily dismiss me made on 26th August 2008 as communicated to me in your letter of 26th August 2008.

My grounds for appeal are given below:

You state ‘failure to carry out reasonable management instructions’ as the principle grounds for your decision to dismiss me on the grounds of gross misconduct. I feel that in the light of mitigating circumstances this is a wholly disproportionate sanction and in all the circumstances unfair. The Supervisor giving me the instructions had earlier on that day issued me with a verbal warning (which was subsequently withdrawn on appeal). I had received no time to prepare for the meeting at which this verbal warning was issued and was deeply upset and stressed at the time of the incident. It was for this reason that I was uncharacteristically reluctant to follow the instructions given by this particular Supervisor.

You mention ‘serious insubordination’ in the letter of dismissal. This complaint was not communicated to me in the original letter requesting my attendance at the Disciplinary Meeting and should not therefore have been considered at the meeting. In addition, I do not believe that an act of insubordination that has caused only an 'inconvenience' as stated in the letter of dismissal is not serious enough to warrant the extreme sanction of summary dismissal. Further, the normal phrase you would see as a definition of Gross Misconduct would be a 'persistent' failure to follow reasonable management instructions and not an isolated and out of character incident.

The Company relies on a rescinded (and unrelated) verbal warning and an 'expired' warning in an attempt to demonstrate a pattern of behaviour. I believe this to be an unfair manipulation of the facts which adds further validity to my grounds for appeal. I also have a concern that the Company, being aware that my husband and I are trying to start a family, may have used this incident as an excuse to remove me from the Company before I became pregnant.

No details are given of the other recent Gross Misconduct dismissal so there is no evidence that the Company is acting 'consistently' in ‘similar circumstances’.

I would like to request copies of all correspondence and notes held on my on my personnel record to assist me in preparing for this appeal.

I am entitled to a hearing to discuss this matter. I am also entitled, if I wish, to be accompanied by a fellow work colleague or my trade union representative at this meeting.

Please reply within 28 days of the date of this letter with your proposed arrangements for this appeal.

Hillary_Smith

simon4amiee wrote: »

My wife has just been given the sack for gross misconduct - she refused to carry out orders from a superior. She had worked there for 3-4 years, getting a promotion on the way, she has been told they will give her golwing references, and the only reason they had to is because they had just had the same case a few days earlier with someone else who did the same.

Now I fear our marriage will end, we will lose our home which is rented, as I dont earn enough to support us both, and I doubt she will get any JSA or any benefits.

I am just so helpless now, and gutted as we have only just moved into a nice home!

UI advise that you go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau A.S.A.P. They will be able to advice on employment procedures also are able to check your possible entitlement to any benefits.