Has anyone sued a Seller and or Surveyor?

hushpuppy

Hi all,

In February this year we bought our (dream) house having worked and saved very hard for it, intending that it would be our home for the rest of our lives.

Not having bought or sold a house for 20 years I (wrongly) instructed a surveyor to complete a full report costing £800. When I went to re-mortgage the Nationwide insisted on their own report, employing the same Surveyor, who in fairness reduced the usual £640 fee to £450, although I am sure all he did is copy his first report onto Nationwide headed paper.

There were a few cosmetic things wrong that he found, but he kept saying in the report things like, "unable to check .......due to amount of clutter on walls, or amount of furniture, etc"

The sellers made quite a big deal that including in the sale were the built in appliances, a sit on lawn mower and a very well stocked pool with in excess of 30 (very large and expensive) fish including Koi.

Within days of moving in, we discovered the following issues;

1. The water softner doesn't work, and living in a very hard water area is essential, so £750 to replace.
2. The washing machine only works on one setting.
3. The tumble drier is erratic.
4. The dishwasher doesn't clean properly on any setting
5. The fride frezer thermostat is broken
6. Six double glazed untis had broken hinges (so when you open the window it drops so you have to go outside to push it closed)
7. The gas fire place did not have a proper chimney flue (£1000 to repair)
8. The property actually has two (oil) boliers, but the second one was never mentioned and when we had an engineer out, he said, 'I was here last year and told them this boiler needed replacing as it doesn't work.' Cost to replace @£3-4K
9. Heat exchanger for pool is broken, cost to repair/replace £500
10. When it rains heavily/consistently the sunken patio floods coming very close to the damp proof course of the house. We have had a drainage company out who found that the patio she had re-layed had covered up three of the four soak-aways so another £800 to fix.
11. The external drainage to the foul water tank also floods when we have heavy rain, but blocks the shower and bath in the bedrooms, again costing £500 to fix.
12. The well stocked fish pool, on the day we moved in had only SIX goldfish, no sign of the Koi, Rudd, Tench etc that were there. (By our estimations probably about £5k worth of fish are missing).
13. The lawn mower had a broken grass collector, which renders it almost useless.

I told the EA all this and she simply said words to the effect off, 'Ah well you always have issues when you move into a property, don't worry about it, and as for the fish a Heron could have got them!!'

My solicitors (who in hind sight I got from the WWW and realise that the cheapest is by no means the best value for money) basically said 'Unlucky, it's buyer beware.'

So for the last 5 months I have been getting more and more depressed as we find even more things wrong with the house, but have not pursued any legal options because of what my Solicitors said.

I realise that some of the issues may sound petty, but the property was being marketed as bespoke, simply needing cosmetic changes by way of re-decoration, and that it was ready to move into and live. We certainly extended ourselves buying it, expecting it to be our dream house, where in effect it has turned into a nighmare.

I feel that the sellers have really got one over on us, as they must have known about the issues with the appliances, the flooding, boiler etc, and if they had told us, maybe we would have accepted it or at least tried to negotiate something further off the price, or got some form of indemnity.

I wrote a polite letter to the seller, explaining the issues, and that I felt let down, but we have never received a reply.

Do I have any re-course with anyone at all? Should I bother or is it a case of 'Buyer beware?'

Many Thanks.

chickmug

The easy advice is you must see a solicitor.

However without being too negative, as an EA I come across this now and again in differing degrees and have rarely found any party who has decided to take the surveyor or seller to court. One case last year the solicitor (who was a personal friend of the buyer) advised the buyer that whilst it was clear there were many faulty items and items taken that should of been included the buyer could end up spending a great deal on money on solicitors costs and have little guarantee of a sucessful outcome.

So what would I do? I would complain to anyone I could and make a real nuisence of myself, cross check what the EA's details said which will have been signed off by the seller, complain to the surveyors, then spend a few quid on money claim online with seller and surveyor. Link at bottom. Make sure you read the surveyors report carefully as they usually cover themselves from every direction in regard to many of the items you have listed.

http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/

guppy

The sellers sound charming, but you've left things quite late - after five months, its going to be impossible to prove a heron didn't eat the fish!

That said, in my opinion the surveyor should have picked up on the chimney flue (is this to do with a missing metal lining?), the windows and the fact there were two boilers. Certainly the problems with the windows are basic, so make a complaint, to the RICS if necessary, and then consider suing as a last resort.

Most of the other issues are outside the surveyor's remit or wouldn't be detected in the course of a normal inspection (e.g. the patio problem, unless it was raining when he visited).

I can see why the sellers wanted to leave everything if nothing works but since you were buying all the domestic appliances, water softner etc. as second hand, and sold as seen, I can't see you have any comeback, unless they made assurances that everything worked when it didn't.

Given the value of the fish, maybe it is worth seeking legal advice, or at least trying to put some pressure on the sellers to negotiate, but the longer you leave it, the harder it is. You might have put it down to experience and try and forget about it.

hushpuppy

Thanks for both bits of advice.

I have checked with my union and I have legal cover through them, so I might as well present my case to the solicitors and see what they suggest, but I think as you have suggested it maybe one of those learning and life enriching experiences!

Premier_2

hushpuppy wrote: »

...is it a case of 'Buyer beware?'

Yes.

Unless you have something in writing that suggests the opposite e.g. when you buy a property it usually comes with an description of what is included. Do you have anything in writing specifying the quantity of Koi that were included in the sale?

With regards to the other items, you would need to have had them inspected and a report issued, if, for example, you can't identify a broken window hinge yourself.

hushpuppy

Premier wrote: »

Yes.

Unless you have something in writing that suggests the opposite e.g. when you buy a property it usually comes with an description of what is included. Do you have anything in writing specifying the quantity of Koi that were included in the sale?

With regards to the other items, you would need to have had them inspected and a report issued, if, for example, you can't identify a broken window hinge yourself.

I made a specific enquiry regarding the number of fish the week before we exchanged contracts (simply beciuse the buyer employed a gardener/handyman, who seemed to have an awful lot of influence over her, and there was something that he had said in an earlier viewing when he was present that made me suspicious of his motives).

The buyers reply via solicitors was that the pond was fully stocked as per described and shown via a photo in the sales brochure.

As for the broken items I would have hoped the surveyor would have found those out, be they seem to cover themselves in all sorts of legal jargon.

Microstar_2

Surveyors' reports are largely a waste of time. Most will just glance around each room and tick a few boxes, its rare that they will check any equipment. The reports are usually peppered with 'get out' clauses. They are mostly thinking about which model of company car they'll be getting, rather than doing a thorough review of the property. You'll be very lucky to get admission of liability and the RICS is effectively their 'union', so complaints to RICS are largely a waste of time unless the surveyor has done something criminal. Simple incompetence is par for the course.

I have bought lots of properties over the years and use my own surveyor (he's actually a lecturer in surveying at a local university) - I've known him a good few years and we go to the property together and I go round with him. Suggest other people do this (i.e. pay for basic 'valuation survey' for your lender but then employ your own surveyor and attend the property with him. It'll cost a few £100's but on something cost £100k+ got to be worth it).

lynzpower

Unfortunately, only two of the issues are to do with the actual fabric of the property, that of the windows, and the chimney flue. I agree with Guppy to complain about these costs, and see if you can recover them from the surveyor/ surveyor co-although I must say Ive never heard of anyone suing a surveyor , so Id be really interested to hear how you go on.

Certainly the working appliances, would have no comeback. Ive never known of a surveyor testing appliances. Indeed they could test it fine and a month later when you move in - the owners could have broken it.

I suppose one could employ a snagging company to do this ( they might if you ask )or you could ask vendors if you can come round and test and be shown all the appliances. but the value of them is 2nd hand appliances, and to be honest, they dont fetch much. I would ensure that you have a decent breakdown cover/ replacement on your home insurance.

As for the fish, I just dont know how youd prove it im afraid.

IU suppose the moral is is if you can get stuff chucked in for free, then great, but I personally wouldnt pay much more for F&Fs. If they dont want to take this stuff with them, then I reckon theyd throw it in anyway. I certainly did when I sold my flat, i worked out it would cost more for the electrician to unwire the cooker than I would have got for it on ebay.

Premier_2

lynzpower wrote: »

...although I must say Ive never heard of anyone suing a surveyor , so Id be really interested to hear how you go on...

They do where the surveyor is believed to have acted negligently. That's partly why surveyors fees are so high - the indemnity insurance.

The windows should certainly would be covered by a full structural survey. It might even be possible under a homebuyers survey, but the usual get out clause is that the client didn't pay for a full structural survey. I've no idea what a homebuyers survey can be held responsible for. Definitely no claim under a basic valuation survey - that only values the property (and perhaps gives a very brief description of it to verify the correct/entire property was assessed)

As regards the chimney flue, I reckon even on a full structural survey it'll have a weasle term like the client should satisfy themselves as to the condition and installation of all gas appliances by commissioning their own survey using a registered corgi engineer authorised & experienced to perform such work.

TomsMom

hushpuppy wrote: »

Hi all,

Not having bought or sold a house for 20 years I (wrongly) instructed a surveyor to complete a full report costing £800. When I went to re-mortgage the Nationwide insisted on their own report, employing the same Surveyor, who in fairness reduced the usual £640 fee to £450, although I am sure all he did is copy his first report onto Nationwide headed paper.

You employed a surveyor to do a full structural survey for you at a cost of £800, normally not a bad choice for peace of mind.

Nationwide, as your mortgage lender, wanted their own report. All they needed was a mortgage valuation, i.e. to make sure the bricks and mortar would cover the cost of the loan should you default. This mortgage valuation is the cheapest possible of the three options, so how come you had a report normally costing £640 but reduced to £450? What type of report was it? Nationwide can't insist you have any particular type of report, all they need is a valuation, i.e. the cheapest will do and that would possibly be a lot less than £450.

[We have recently agreed a sale on our restaurant with accommodation above. The purchasers had a mortgage valuation only. The valuer took all of 20 minutes to look around a four storey property, garden and outbuilding which contained a freezer room, prep room and store. All he did was walk into each room, take a quick glance and use his electronic measure to take measurements of the rooms. Hardly a "survey" but it was just the basic valuation which the bank required.]

I would have thought the surveyor, for the full stuctural survey you commissioned, would be doing things like turning taps on, flushing toilets, opening windows, etc., to make sure everything works OK, as part of the survey. I think he most certainly should have noticed the window problem and the flue.

As for the other items I would seek advice from a solicitor although the built-in appliances and lawn mower were probably down to you inspecting them to satisfy yourself they were (a) in working order and (b) you actually wanted them. We had to furnish our solicitor with things like the invoice confirming most recent boiler service and original invoices for double glazing including FENSA certificates if appropriate which were to be passed on to the purchaser's solicitor. I'm not sure those would be required for a residential sale. Was there a HIPS?

hushpuppy wrote: »

Do I have any re-course with anyone at all? Should I bother or is it a case of 'Buyer beware?'

Many Thanks.

Take a look at this thread and my reply post #15, not sure if it will help but food for thought! I would certainly be taking issue with the surveyor over the windows and flue.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1033461

lincroft1710

Surveyors do have very expensive indemnity insurance, but about the only things you could possibly sue for are negligence re flue and D/G handles. I have no idea how easy it is to check the flue or if surveyors go round opening all the windows - when I sold my old house 10 yrs ago I don't remember buyer's surveyor checking those. I am not sure that they do/can check boilers. If the survey had mentioned flue and handles what would you have done? Pulled out of purchase? Asked for reduction - which may have not been agreed? If you can get free legal help to sue surveyor - fine, but if not you have think carefully what you hope to get moneywise by suing and how much it will cost you if you lose. I wouldn't waste your time pursuing vendor, they will only say it was up to you to check if appliances worked properly or if there was flooding - as most of us would if we were in their position.