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home made sandwiches
Comments
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When would you wash your hands and equipment?
A) chopping tomatoes changing to chopping cucumber
b) cooked meats changing to chopping tomatoes
c) raw meats changing to chopping lettuce
d) dicing egg changing to cooked bacon
e) slicing stilton changing to dicing tomatoes
f) slicing rare beef changing to dicing peppers
2) If cooking diced chicken. How would you know every peice is cooked to a safe standard?
3) When you have taken this diced chicken out of the oven. What would you do with it before some one eats it? (from oven to mouth)0 -
no food posioning does happen.
I didn't say it didn't happen, I said 99% of people seem to be able to feed them selves without giving them selves food poisoning.Can you answer the best way to wash your hands then?
Why? I'm not going to be selling sandwiches to anyone. Personally, I rarely wash my hands before making my own sandwiches any way. Never had food poisoning because my immune system gets stuff to fight. So it's more than capable of handling the bacteria in my kitchen.
Obviously, if I were making one for someone else then I would be a lot more hygienic as they may be the type that never let's any bacteria anywhere near their immune system.
Tell that to the people who died in Scotland when their meats got cross contaminated at the local butcher which result in about 20 deaths.
Which proves my point, they bought the meat, put it in sandwiches and salads and got poisoned. it was nothing to do with their hygiene, it was the supplier.As I said food hygeine is a little more than washing hands.
or the recent cases of food poisioning in hopsital etc.
I didn't say it wasn't, all I said was you can know you have to wash your hands even if you don't have a certificate to prove it. It was you who got on your high horse and started going on about having factories, supplying tesco's etc.
By making their own sandwichs instead of the sandwiches being from a high risk factory. They are removing people from people who spent ther working life trianing in this feild.
You can't spend your working life being trained, if you did you won't have had a working life, you will have had an education. One training day per year is more like it.
And you said it "High risk factory" I'd rather my sandwiches came froma low risk kitchen!
using tesco as a example any supermarket is the same. They are scared of giving some one food poising even the most frail person. They will go to far greater levels to decrease the chances of people being ill.
We are talking sales well over 10 million units with not a single person being ill.
I bet if we dig deep enough we can come up with people who have been poisoned by Tesco's sandwiches.Ok the local newsagent is not going to sell as many units as this.
But just washing your hands as most peoples mums taught and a basic food hygiene certifcate trianing. It will result in a customer being ill.
Just as the sales are much lower they are less likely to inflict this on the general public.
How do you know their customers will be ill? There are many people who make lots of sandwiches and don't make people ill.Food poisoning happens for various reason.
You suggest they buy dodgy ham. Why is the ham dodgy? Does the butcher not know how to wash his hands?
You pointed it out your self, the butcher cross contaminated the meat. And killed 20 people! I suppose most of them washed their hands before making the sandwiches and salads.if the local butcher is having these issues, what makes the little sandwich shop any different?
The butcher was negligent, I read the story the other day, his shop was a disgrace.
I'm pretty sure the OP is a lot more hygenic than that butcher and will take great care when preparing and storing the sandwiches etc.
Incidentally, the butcher had been trained and had certificates too.Lots of people like to blame shops.
That's because lots of shops need blaming.eg prawn sandwich from any major retailer.
It was those prawns that gave me food posioning.
Yet the prawns had been washed in water that been sterlised in UV light. When caught packed straight in ice. Only defrosted long enough to clean.
then cooked using calibrated ovens. post cooking cooled to under 4centrigrade with in a hour. Then frozen with in a few more hours.
Some of the batch of sent off to a lab for micro testing before being sold.
when arrive at the sandwich factory. They will be defrosted seperatly in a enviroment where everyone has specail kit on and sterlised their hands.
If on defrosting the temp goes above 8c. they will be thrown away.
Packed into a sandwich which after making the sandwich will be under 5c with in 4 hours of making and kept at this temp all the way until store.
These are the extra lengths the food industry is going to that you can't realistically do at home.
That's the way it should be done, most don't do that. They cut corners to save money.
Do a google search for tesco out of date food. You will see how many times they have been fined for selling out of date food.0 -
mindyourlanguage wrote: »Hello
I own a Newsagents, I have a sandwich company that supplies me. Can I make my own at home and sell them?
I bet you wish you'd never asked, now !!:rotfl:0 -
geordie_joe wrote: »I didn't say it didn't happen, I said 99% of people seem to be able to feed them selves without giving them selves food poisoning.
Most people are fit and healthy. However if you selling snadwichs to pregnant, the elderly and the ill.
Yes you and me will be fine eating. They may not fair so well.
Unless the Op puts warning on this sandwich is not suitable for person X. They may not fair so well.
there is a good chance no one will be ill and if they are ill their just think its a bug going around.
Again we have to protect the people who immune system is not as good as ours.Geordie_joe wrote: »Why? I'm not going to be selling sandwiches to anyone. Personally, I rarely wash my hands before making my own sandwiches any way. Never had food poisoning because my immune system gets stuff to fight. So it's more than capable of handling the bacteria in my kitchen.
I ask the question about washing hands as there appears to see what answer are given. As this is where the debated started.
Geordie_joe wrote: »Obviously, if I were making one for someone else then I would be a lot more hygienic as they may be the type that never let's any bacteria anywhere near their immune system.
It was the butcher at fault. Even though he had the basics he either A) just did not careGeordie_joe wrote: »Which proves my point, they bought the meat, put it in sandwiches and salads and got poisoned. it was nothing to do with their hygiene, it was the supplier.
he did not understand the implications of what he was doing was wrong as he had not had more advanced trianing.
Geordie_joe wrote: »I didn't say it wasn't, all I said was you can know you have to wash your hands even if you don't have a certificate to prove it. It was you who got on your high horse and started going on about having factories, supplying tesco's etc.
Geordie_joe wrote: »
You can't spend your working life being trained, if you did you won't have had a working life, you will have had an education. One training day per year is more like it.
More trianing is often done. Plus part of their job is to investigate and rectify issues.
Which in turn improves their knowledge.
from a food safety point of view I prefer it from a high risk factory. Thats our choices.Geordie_joe wrote: »And you said it "High risk factory" I'd rather my sandwiches came froma low risk kitchen!
Tesco probably sell around 100,000,000 sandwiches a year.Geordie_joe wrote: »I bet if we dig deep enough we can come up with people who have been poisoned by Tesco's sandwiches.
So you may get one or two. But a ratio of 100 million sandwich sales a year. Only one or two incidence of food posioning in a decade will be very low.
Your unlikely to find more than that. Based on the main supplier have high standards. of which I know people who have investigated complaints for them.
Yes lots of people will not be ill.Geordie_joe wrote: »How do you know their customers will be ill? There are many people who make lots of sandwiches and don't make people ill.
however if every single newsagent in the UK went to make on site or at home. Their a good chance the level of people getting food poisoning from sandwiches would increase.
I can not prove this, while at same time it can not be proven wrong.
But the newsagent person is not rearing the pig in the back garden. So they can not 100% sure know the ham is safe even if cooking it themselve.Geordie_joe wrote: »You pointed it out your self, the butcher cross contaminated the meat. And killed 20 people! I suppose most of them washed their hands before making the sandwiches and salads.
Plus, they are not mining the salt used in the ham.
So they will buy the salt from a salt supplier.
So at some point they will have used ingredients that have come from a factory.
Geordie_joe wrote: »The butcher was negligent, I read the story the other day, his shop was a disgrace.
I'm pretty sure the OP is a lot more hygenic than that butcher and will take great care when preparing and storing the sandwiches etc.
Incidentally, the butcher had been trained and had certificates too.
as above. He was not trianed well enough or just did not care.
Their will always be people, wether big factory or little person cooking at home. Though hopefully in a big factory you have enough good people and audits going on to catch these rogue individuals out.
Also the local enviromental health officer in small shops may not have been up to the job as well.
Shops can be at fault. But often consumer are to blame.Geordie_joe wrote: »That's because lots of shops need blaming.
Cutting corners can often happen as people are not trianed well enough.Geordie_joe wrote: »That's the way it should be done, most don't do that. They cut corners to save money.
Geordie_joe wrote: »Do a google search for tesco out of date food. You will see how many times they have been fined for selling out of date food.
While its a illegal to sell product past a use by date. I always check the date. I go for the freshest.
To me its like mary whitehouse watching some thing she want to be offended by. Pick the ingredient with most shelf life left, its common sense.0 -
Most people are fit and healthy. However if you selling snadwichs to pregnant, the elderly and the ill.
Yes you and me will be fine eating. They may not fair so well.
But my point was that 99% of people can make a sandwich for them selves and not get poisoned because of something they have done/not done (washing hands).
Are you saying old people, ill people and women up the duff can't make a sandwich without making them selves ill?Unless the Op puts warning on this sandwich is not suitable for person X. They may not fair so well.
there is a good chance no one will be ill and if they are ill their just think its a bug going around.
You are assuming that the person making the sandwiches is not following good hygiene because they don't have a certificate.
But the main point is that bacteria in an ordinary kitchen will only make you think there is a bug going round, bacteria in a sterile factory will probably kill you.
Take hospitals. If you get a bug from not washing your hands while making a sandwich in your own kitchen the worst that will happen is you'll have the sh*ts for a day or two. But get a bug from a hospital operating theatre, one of the most sterile and hygienic places you will ever be in, and the chances are that all the doctors in that hospital won't be able to save your life.
Again we have to protect the people who immune system is not as good as ours.
Have you ever thought that by protecting them you are only building a stronger strain of bacteria?It was the butcher at fault. Even though he had the basics he either A) just did not care he did not understand the implications of what he was doing was wrong as he had not had more advanced trianing.
Which was my point, you can be trained until your blue in the face, but that training and the certificate you get for it does not mean you will follow the training.More trianing is often done. Plus part of their job is to investigate and rectify issues.
Which in turn improves their knowledge.
What about the tesco employee that had all the training than tesco can buy, backed up by all the checks tesco do, and still slipped a condom into a sandwich. Presumably for laugh, but it shows certificates mean nothing.
from a food safety point of view I prefer it from a high risk factory. Thats our choices.
Your choice, but give me the local person who will suffer if anything goes wrong over the unknown employee that thinks it will be a laugh to slip a condom into a sandwich. Knowing full well the company is so big they will never find out who did it.
Give me the person who makes the sandwich knowing that if they get it wrong they will end up facing the person that bought it every time.
Tesco probably sell around 100,000,000 sandwiches a year.
So you may get one or two.
Come on, make up your mind. Earlier you said
We are talking sales well over 10 million units with not a single person being ill
Yes lots of people will not be ill.
however if every single newsagent in the UK went to make on site or at home. Their a good chance the level of people getting food poisoning from sandwiches would increase.
I can not prove this, while at same time it can not be proven wrong.
I'm that if every newsagent did start making their own sandwiches then some would make people ill. Just the same as when all car owners drive their cars some of them have accidents.
But we are talking about one specific MSE member here, and I happen to think we should give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume they are going to be less than their best in their venture.
But the newsagent person is not rearing the pig in the back garden. So they can not 100% sure know the ham is safe even if cooking it themselve.
No, but they can buy it from a reputable company and look after it while it is in their possession
Unlike the butcher who didn't give a sh*t what he did with it and killed 20 people.Plus, they are not mining the salt used in the ham.
So they will buy the salt from a salt supplier.
So at some point they will have used ingredients that have come from a factory.
But you said that if you buy in sadwiches and someone gets ill you can blame the supplier. can you not do the same with the ingredients?
as above. He was not trianed well enough or just did not care.
He was a qualified butcher, do they not get training, or have to pass a test to show they know things?
Their will always be people, wether big factory or little person cooking at home. Though hopefully in a big factory you have enough good people and audits going on to catch these rogue individuals out.
Also the local enviromental health officer in small shops may not have been up to the job as well.
And there you have it. In big business you need good people, audits and enviromental health officers to catch those that just don't/won't/can't follow the rules. But in the small newsagent world you have people who don't need that, because they know their livelyhood/reputation/liberty/self respect is on the line.
As I said, I would rather my sandwich was made by someone who knew that if it wasn't right they would come face to face with me, as oppose to it being made by someone who thinks that if they slip a condom into it no one will ever know it was them.
Shops can be at fault. But often consumer are to blame.
Yes but we are talking about sarnnies that are fit when bought, not what the consumer does after they buy it.
Cutting corners can often happen as people are not trianed well enough.
It can also happen when business' think they can save money.While its a illegal to sell product past a use by date.
If it is illegal why has tesco been fined so many times for doing it?
And more to the point, have they sold sandwiches that are past there best?0 -
Anyone who knows anybody who works in a food factory will listen to the ''jokes'' the employees play on the food and never eat anything made in a factory again.
Geordie is right, people in a factory will ignore their training BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. Training is NOT the answer!0 -
Wow!!! So many replies.............its putting me right off making them now :rotfl:0
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Anyone who knows anybody who works in a food factory will listen to the ''jokes'' the employees play on the food and never eat anything made in a factory again.
Geordie is right, people in a factory will ignore their training BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. Training is NOT the answer!
But you employ QA and supervisors. The person gets caught playing the jokes get sacked.
The same people who do not eat foods made in their factory will have no issues in eating some thing else from another factory.
Its also bit of a sweeping statement to suggest that everyone who works in a factory does not care and will ignore their trianing.
By saying trianing is not the answer. Do you suggest no training then?0 -
geordie_joe wrote: »But my point was that 99% of people can make a sandwich for them selves and not get poisoned because of something they have done/not done (washing hands).
There are around 2.5 million case of food poisoning a year.
costing approx £1 billion.
Geordie_joe wrote: »Are you saying old people, ill people and women up the duff can't make a sandwich without making them selves ill?
You said you do not wash your hands and are fine. But you are not ill, pregnant or inferm to my knowldege.
They can make themselves a sandwich but have to take more pracatutions than you due to their weaker immune system.
You could make 100 sandwiches for pregnant women and 99 would be fine with out washing your hands. but if one had a misscairage due to minor food poisoning, would you feel guilty? or it was not your fault.
I know you did say if you were making for other people you would wash your hands.
There are a few foods the above people are not recommend to eat. So the OP has to be more vigilent about not cross contaminating these ingredeints, which I guess they will be.
Also when you make sandwich, I am not sure if you are eating them straight away or saving them for later.
Geordie_joe wrote: »You are assuming that the person making the sandwiches is not following good hygiene because they don't have a certificate.
But the main point is that bacteria in an ordinary kitchen will only make you think there is a bug going round, bacteria in a sterile factory will probably kill you.
Take hospitals. If you get a bug from not washing your hands while making a sandwich in your own kitchen the worst that will happen is you'll have the sh*ts for a day or two. But get a bug from a hospital operating theatre, one of the most sterile and hygienic places you will ever be in, and the chances are that all the doctors in that hospital won't be able to save your life.
Food factorys are not sterile.
When being operated on in hospital. Your inside are exposed with out your skin and stomach acid protecting you. The bacteria gets inside you. Thats why you can die rather than just killer bugs in hospitals and no where else.
If you want to eat raw chicken from your kitchen. Let me know in two days that your fine except for some sh**s.
The bacteria in food factories is pretty much the same as you get at home.
I am not sure what evidence you have to suggest that if you get food poisoning from a food factory its going to be a killer, while at home it will be minor.0 -
geordie_joe wrote: »Have you ever thought that by protecting them you are only building a stronger strain of bacteria?
yes.
But at the same time. If we stop cooking chicken and give it to people raw. It will still leave harmful bacteria present.
(ignore raw chicken is not a nice texture)
Geordie_joe wrote: »Which was my point, you can be trained until your blue in the face, but that training and the certificate you get for it does not mean you will follow the training.
He was negligant.
However as he had qualifications he can't use the fact he was not trianed as a excuse.
Your will always get some one along a line who is negliant. This may happen if the OP gets there ham from a accredited source. Its just less likely to happen.
There are people out there who do not know the basics and going on a course will help them. You get people who fail the course as well.
So the person who originally asked for why its needed.
Would you want people who fail the course to serve you food?
Geordie_joe wrote: »What about the tesco employee that had all the training than tesco can buy, backed up by all the checks tesco do, and still slipped a condom into a sandwich. Presumably for laugh, but it shows certificates mean nothing.
Your choice, but give me the local person who will suffer if anything goes wrong over the unknown employee that thinks it will be a laugh to slip a condom into a sandwich. Knowing full well the company is so big they will never find out who did it.
Give me the person who makes the sandwich knowing that if they get it wrong they will end up facing the person that bought it every time.
THings like condom are often found by people looking to claim money back. Ie they put the condom in their.
With out going into detail of how this is figured out as do not want to give people ideas.
There are porfession complainers.
Not saying the condom was not found in there as have not got a link to the case you are discussing.
It will still go back to who the OP uses as a supplier. Some one can put some thing malicous in the ham. The OP will never know. But still have a angry customer to deal with.
Condom is not pleasant but its not going to kill me. Or make me ill.
I am more worried about micro-organisms. I prefer from a safety point of view a product that is cooked in calibrated ovens using calibrated temp probes including verification of largest peice of meat cooked for the shortest amount of time in the coldest part of the oven. Then chilled down with in 4 hours to under 5c.
Can you do this at home, yes. But it get more complex, time consuming etc.0
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