Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

DAVID.T_3

Can't let Hate LPG have the last word every time :laugh:

I'm quite sure there are very large garages that could get sell 1400-1500litres of fuel a day, (i.e. more in a day than my friend does in 2 years) but I don't think either of those scenarios could be considered to be anywhere close to the "norm".

Large autogas users can take 10,000lts per day + Small ones 1,000Lts (thats only 25 cars per day)

the standard typical standing charge is now more like £100 per year

I would not say this is normal, not yet anyway. most we are up against are still £50.00

I have no doubt that the suppliers view this as a necessary cost of sale (ok, so they will try to claw back some of the value - but that should be done via the standing charge and NOT as an on-cost).

Ooo come on, payback by tank rental only would take 30 years without the tank testing at £50.00 per annum (and thats what I charge)

I would not call 2500 litres a year average - that is decidedly on the low side. I would say that "average" use is probably closer to 3,500 - 4000 litres a year, especially now that colder winters seem to be becoming the norm

On exactly how many customers are you basing your calculations, I have downloaded all our domestic customers onto excel with usage and divided this by the number of customers

40.06 at the pump + 3p ltr tank + 5p delivery + 3p profit = 45.06

Meany....... you took my 3p profit away, that was for the BMW you spoke about

Saying all that, its not the worst way to keep an eye on prices and as long as you use a realistic surcharge rate on top it could work quite well.

LittleVermin

suesmiles wrote: »

I'm paying 52.4ppl from Calor. Price was increased by 3.5p on 1st Dec, and there were several other price increases last year - this time last year I was paying 43.4ppl. Decided to compare some prices with a possible view to change suppliers and today I was quoted 41.9ppl from Shell, for first six months, subject to 2 yr contract (not sure if this includes VAT but am assuming not). Flogas was 46.9ppl and said they couldn't drop below this price, and Calor offered me 44.9ppl + VAT. If I'm right in thinking that domestic users of lpg pay only 5% (could someone please correct me if I'm wrong) then this is a better price than I'm currently paying. Have come to the conclusion that the only way to get a cheaper rate is to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate and play the big boys off against one another! Have just had enough of paying such a lot of money to cook a meal and keep warm, especially when it's been so cold. Calor have today sent me a contract at the price they quoted, but am now going to see if they will drop when I mention Shell's offer. If they won't, then I shall consider changing to Shell, but would appreciate any feedback from anyone who uses them. Thanks for all the help I've already had from reading this forum.

Hi suesmiles,

Welcome to the forum!

Now is a very bad time to start a new contract. Wholesale LPG prices normally drop in the N. Hemisphere summer. From bitter experience we know that retail LPG prices - i.e. what we pay - never or hardly ever drop.

So it might be worth a gamble to keep on being supplied by Calor, but out of contract, until prices drop (but of course they may not!). The easiest way to see if prices have gone down is by looking at the monthly price posted by Extra Fuel ( http://www.extrafuel.co.uk ).

Since Calor own your tank (I presume) you have to keep getting your LPG from them - unless you buy the tank off them. There's a fixed formula for this (I've posted the link before) and whenever gas is delivered the driver does a visual check (this constitutes the annual check - so you need at least one delivery a year) - as laid down on Calor's website - and then you'd need to pay for the 10 year and 20 year tests. Tanks go on beyond 20 years but some companies remove them for a refurb ... and might not supply a >20 year tank so if your tank is old (info on the brass plate) this is a point to note. The tests cost a few hundred pounds - less than £500 but more than £200 (I believe). There are independant gas engineers - with all the right certificates and checked testing gear - who'll do this ... and they also work for some of the major companies too.

cheers,
LittleVermin

PS You say your price has gone up from 43.4ppl to 52.4ppl in 12 months: that's 9p in 12 months - I'd check your contract to see if this has exceeded the maximum price rise.

HateLPG

David, I think we're splitting hairs here

I was just trying to propose some kind of yardstick that could be used to work out a "fair" price - and this is the best I could come up with (and in principle, you seem to agree that !it could be helpful).

Remember, you're a supplier so you want to get the best price possible. I'm a consumer and want to pay as little as possible, so in the interests of fairness, shall we split the difference and call it 47-48ppl? (Or do you want to stick with your 51p and upgrade to a Ferrari )

One thing we do seem to agree on is 55+ppl is too much!

Incidentally, I based my "average usage" figures on consumption rates posted in this thread and on my experience (you'd love me as a customer, providing you could put up with me being an argumentative sod - I use upwards of 5500l a year!). But I guess that is inevitably a distorted figure as it will always be the higher volume users that feel the pain of the price rises the most and look around for alternative suppliers or cheaper prices. As a result, I am sure that this thread represents a distorted demographic. But as I'm not an insider, I hope you'll accept that I had nothing else to go on!

Not really trying to have the last word

Speakeasy_2

So if the LPG suppliers cannot do better than those prices and a person has a chance of a fresh start, it would be better to go with oil heating? I don't know whether that would worry Shell or BP who presumably supply both.

HateLPG

Speakeasy wrote: »

So if the LPG suppliers cannot do better than those prices and a person has a chance of a fresh start, it would be better to go with oil heating? I don't know whether that would worry Shell or BP who presumably supply both.

Well, David and I clearly disagree on this point, but*I*would say 45ppl sounds about right (also, interestingly, the price you suggested in your last post )

I don't know what's out there right here and now for new contracts - you might be lucky and get a so-called introductory offer, so it's probably worth looking around and haggling hard. Remember, mitchy74 got a price from Shell of just 32,5ppl for himself and hsi parents (two different contracts) just a month ago!

If you decide to look at alternatives, don;t just look at Oil - do your homework and see if AHSP or GHSP might be suitable - they are not always appropriate, especially as a "straight swap" - it all depends on the construction of your house, garden size etc. I would suggest looking at one of the many threads on here for more specific advice and information.

As far as mentioning to Shell, BP etc that you might be considering Oil as an alternative to LPG, personally I wouldn't - you don't want them thinking that even if they stick to their guns in respect of LPG price, they'll still pick up your business as an oil customer. But that's just my opinion - others on here might (indeed probably will) take a different view on that point!

Speakeasy_2

Yes HateLPG, I was not particularly talking about myself. I just have a feeling that if LPG was the same price as oil, the suppliers would think that we would be happy with that. A supplier has on their website a comparison of LPG and oil. They mention among other things, that there is 11.7% less CO2 emitted per kWh than heating oil but perhaps conveniently leave out (as far as I can see) that there is about 30% more heat in a litre of oil compared to a litre of LPG. If customers saw that they were paying the same price for LPG as oil, a large number of them would think that they were doing OK when they are not.

HateLPG

I have been doing a bit more digging following David.T's post suggesting that the average LPG customer uses about 2,500 litres of LPG per year:

British Gas (who should have a pretty good idea of annual consumption), base their standard tariff on "average consumption of 16,500 kWh for gas ... averaged across all regions" (http://www.britishgas.co.uk/products-and-services/energy/our-tariffs/standard.html)

The Carbon Trust publish energy density figures for LPG of 7.4 kW/h per litre (http://www.bitc.org.uk/document.rm?id=6538)

So, assuming that an LPG user will be using LPG as a direct and equivalent replacement for mains gas, this suggests typical annual LPG usage should be about:

16500 / 7.4 = 2230 litres per year (so I'm afraid my figures drawn from this forum were somewhat on the high side and typical LPG usage is probably pretty much in line with what David said. Apologies.)

I guess if that proved anything, it is that the typical contributor to this forum (who has posted any usage figures) is a "high rate" user (Be warned: David.T will probably now start chasing you for your business )

SD-253

HateLPG wrote: »

A domestic tank may cost £1500 to install, but bear in mind, the user is often asked to foot a substantial part of that bill at the time of installation;

As in?? The concrete base and the pipe work? Not the tank as that does not belong to the user?

HateLPG wrote: »

1. The days of the £50 annual tank standing charge are long gone - as has been frequently mentioned on this forum - the standard typical standing charge is now more like £100 per year, and WILL rise SUBSTANTIALLY (by considerably more than the opportunity cost of the capital tied up in the tank) over the next 20 years!;

The quote is normally £60 and may I ask how you can see in to the future? Now in my case I would (if I was the supplier) ask for at least £100 as I am small user at least at the moment while I have wood.

HateLPG wrote: »

rather than messing about with a 20 year test, they just hoick the tank out and replace it.;

Not sure of that as no one can work out how old my tank is. The engineer tested when changing supplier, isn't that equivalent to 20 year test? And therefore with more changing of suppliers that would seem less likely. Note I said is the test equivalent. My tank is 1600liters (according to what says on the tank) and was owned by Atlas gas....who the hell are they?
1.

HateLPG wrote: »

I would not call 2500 liters a year average - that is decidedly on the low side. I would say that "average" use is probably closer to 3,500 - 4000 liters a year, especially now that colder winters seem to be becoming the norm.

Where are you getting your figures from? Both figures are just made up IE 2500 and 3,500 to 4,000. Mine would be below the 2,500 (without burning wood). How about doing a survey? Almost certainly a waste of time short term but you could ask people to note them down from now on........but again who is most likely to note them down...the high users??
So where does that leave us?

HateLPG wrote: »

Minimum Income from tank rental over 20 years: (20 * £100) = £2000;

Cost of ten year test (inferred from your figures [The £ 50.00 tank rental charge would be eaten by the 10 year test and 20 year test]) = £500 (although I doubt it's anything LIKE this high)

Income from tank rental over 20 years AFTER testing = £2000 - £500 = £1500;

Less cost of tank £1500 - £1500 = £0;

So, I think it is fair to say that tanks costs should be more or less well covered by the annual standing charge after all!.

Now earlier on you were using economic logic but the latter is ludicrous. If you invested £1500 over 20 years you would want a little more than nothing back?????????? JB

suesmiles

The easiest way to see if prices have gone down is by looking at the monthly price posted by Extra Fuel. Since Calor own your tank (I presume) you have to keep getting your LPG from them - unless you buy the tank off them.


Thank you, Little Vermin - it's helpful to know what the average current price is. Yes, Calor own my tank but when I spoke to Shell yesterday, they explained that they would purchase it from Calor - I need to find out, of course, whether any payment would be required from me. I'm not on any contract at the moment, so I may leave it until the Spring as you recommend. I would jump for joy if prices dropped - although looking back I see that they did around May 2009 so it is possible, albeit not likely!

HateLPG

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

HateLPG wrote: »

A domestic tank may cost £1500 to install, but bear in mind, the user is often asked to foot a substantial part of that bill at the time of installation;

As in?? The concrete base and the pipe work? Not the tank as that does not belong to the user?

SD-253 (a.k.a. brandeberryj), do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?

I am not talking about groundworks or pipework, I am talking about payments to the LPG supply company for them to install the tank. Granted, "often" may have been a bad choice of word here, but although it is not, by any means universal practice, it does happen, especially in respect of underground tanks!

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

HateLPG wrote: »

1. The days of the £50 annual tank standing charge are long gone - as has been frequently mentioned on this forum - the standard typical standing charge is now more like £100 per year, and WILL rise SUBSTANTIALLY (by considerably more than the opportunity cost of the capital tied up in the tank) over the next 20 years!;

The quote is normally £60 and may I ask how you can see in to the future? Now in my case I would (if I was the supplier) ask for at least £100 as I am small user at least at the moment while I have wood.

SD-253 (a.k.a. brandeberryj), do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?

When did you last see anyone quoted £60 for tank rental when signing a new contract? In the last few months, this has leapt to typically £100 p.a., and in one case, £170 p.a. Try following the forum!

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

HateLPG wrote: »

rather than messing about with a 20 year test, they just hoick the tank out and replace it.;

Not sure of that as no one can work out how old my tank is. The engineer tested when changing supplier, isn't that equivalent to 20 year test? And therefore with more changing of suppliers that would seem less likely. Note I said is the test equivalent. My tank is 1600liters (according to what says on the tank) and was owned by Atlas gas....who the hell are they?

SD-253 (a.k.a. brandeberryj), do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?

Well if you're not sure of that, what was your point? I was only quoting what I have been told by engineers from both Calor and Shell.

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

HateLPG wrote: »

I would not call 2500 liters a year average - that is decidedly on the low side. I would say that "average" use is probably closer to 3,500 - 4000 liters a year, especially now that colder winters seem to be becoming the norm.

Where are you getting your figures from? Both figures are just made up IE 2500 and 3,500 to 4,000. Mine would be below the 2,500 (without burning wood). How about doing a survey? Almost certainly a waste of time short term but you could ask people to note them down from now on........but again who is most likely to note them down...the high users??
So where does that leave us?

SD-253 (a.k.a. brandeberryj), do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?

I have already posted (twice) on that and accept that my figures (based on typical figures quoted by users in this forum) were too high . In fact, David's figures, as is now apparent were not made up, but were pretty realistic. If you bother to read my previous post on this, you will see how I came to the conclusion that David's figure of 2,500l was more or less correct.

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

HateLPG wrote: »

Minimum Income from tank rental over 20 years: (20 * £100) = £2000;

Cost of ten year test (inferred from your figures [The £ 50.00 tank rental charge would be eaten by the 10 year test and 20 year test]) = £500 (although I doubt it's anything LIKE this high)

Income from tank rental over 20 years AFTER testing = £2000 - £500 = £1500;

Less cost of tank £1500 - £1500 = £0;

So, I think it is fair to say that tanks costs should be more or less well covered by the annual standing charge after all!.


Now earlier on you were using economic logic but the latter is ludicrous. If you invested £1500 over 20 years you would want a little more than nothing back?????????? JB

SD-253 (a.k.a. brandeberryj), do you actually read this forum, or do you just flame random posts for sport?

Do you really think that your standing charge will remain at the same level for the entire duration of your contract? And anyway, tank installation is a necessary cost of sale - they are not (or shouldn't be) in the business of making the money back from the tank. They make their money on the LPG that sell you to they put in the tank. Provided they can cover the cost of the tank, then they are well up on the deal! (It's called opportunity cost, BTW)

No doubt, I will get a typically abusive response to this!