Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

shibbydibby

look forward to joining discussion. so far I cant find any supplier local apart from the search finders that give the usual BP, Calor etc but then it took either attempts to log in to this site!
5 days before I moved into this house a supplier lobbed 400litres into the tank without the then occupiers' permission so they refused to pay. This wasnt lodged as a legal grievance so am I to assume the gas mine ? I recall the bill was £380 so it it seems very expensive to say the least. More reading to do ... but I guess somehow the suppliers accounts will show the debt ..

HateLPG

Hi Shibbydibby, and welcome to the forum.

Firstly, can I commend you on distilling a very knotty problem into one short post. I fear that definitive leagal advice on this matter is probably beyond what any poster is likely to be willing or able to post publicly, and unless you can reach an amicable agreement with all parties, you should really very seriously consider taking professional advice to confirm you position, options and liabilities.

I appears to me that this is a dispute between the LPG supplier and the previous owner/tenant, but this leaves you in a potentially difficult position: It is likely that any gas still in the tank will remain the property of the supplier until paid for in full. Furthermore, it is also likely that the supplier will own the tank. If this is the case, it is unlikely that they will make further deliveries or authorise transfer until the outstanding debt has been settled to their satisfaction, regardless of whose fault it is. If the supplier is a "reasonable" supplier, it is possible that you could negotiate an amicable resolution, however, if as you said, they charged £380 for £400 litres and delivered without permission, I would not expect "reasonableness" to figure highly in their operating practices.

I can also see, from a legal point of view, that there could be "implications" if you use LPG that is techincally not owned by you and over which the supplier is already in dispute (even if it was explicitly detailed in any tenancy agreements or coneyance documents, it was not techincally the previous occupier's LPG to sell).

So first and foremost, I would suggest that you take professional legal advice on this matter to clarify your position before moving forward.

It would also be helpful for others if you could post a bit more detail of the disputed delivery. You said that it was for just 400 litres, but that the charge was £380? Could you confirm these figures? This is a bit on the small side for a routine delivery, unless it was a "drive-by topup" which some suppliers do. Was there a "special delivery charge" applied to this delivery which is contributing to this extraordinarily high price, and if so why (since you said the previous occupier didn't ask for it)? Even for the most unscrupulous of suppliers, a price of 90+ppl (ex-vat) is extortionate, so it seems to me that there could be a bit more to all this than meets the eye.

Looking forward, do not allow yourself to be coerced into signing a two-year supply contract at a premium price just to find an "easy" way out of this (i.e. don't let the supplier say "if you sign here, we'll let you keep the gas in the tank and take it from there"). And whatever contract you sign and whenever you sign it, scrutinise it carefully, especially for clauses that protect you against excessive price rises by the supplier (there is plenty posted about this earlier in this thread and I'm sure (hope) we'll hear lots more on this matter in the light of the recently published OFT report into Off-Mains Energy supply).

As things stand, the concensus on the forum seems to be that a "fair" price is currently something between 45ppl and 50ppl, which should give you a start point for negotiation (in my opinion, it should probably be nearer the 45ppl end of that band given current wholesale prices). And remember, if you read through this thread (you won't have to go back too far) you will get a pretty good idea of which of the suppliers available to you in your area that you might prefer to do business with and which suppliers you might prefer to avoid.

Finally, would you mind posting which is the supplier in question and roughly whereabouts in the country you are? This will make it easier for other forum members to suggest alternative suppliers for you to approach once you get the more pressing legal matters resolved.

Good Luck

[Deleted User]

shibbydibby wrote: »

look forward to joining discussion. so far I cant find any supplier local apart from the search finders that give the usual BP, Calor etc but then it took either attempts to log in to this site!
5 days before I moved into this house a supplier lobbed 400litres into the tank without the then occupiers' permission so they refused to pay. This wasnt lodged as a legal grievance so am I to assume the gas mine ? I recall the bill was £380 so it it seems very expensive to say the least. More reading to do ... but I guess somehow the suppliers accounts will show the debt ..

If they forgot to suspend topups they will have to pay...

Sounds like your lucky day

LittleVermin

shibbydibby wrote: »

look forward to joining discussion. so far I cant find any supplier local apart from the search finders that give the usual BP, Calor etc but then it took either attempts to log in to this site!
5 days before I moved into this house a supplier lobbed 400litres into the tank without the then occupiers' permission so they refused to pay. This wasnt lodged as a legal grievance so am I to assume the gas mine ? I recall the bill was £380 so it it seems very expensive to say the least. More reading to do ... but I guess somehow the suppliers accounts will show the debt ..

Welcome to the forum!

I guess you are renting? The tank is owned by who? The contract was made by the house owner? The tank is on auto-top-up (either because it has a telemetry device or the tanker comes by and fills up if he/she has spare)?

Lots of questions! But if 400l was the last fill and the bill (solely for LPG) was £380 then the price was 90.48ppl (+ 5% VAT). That is the highest price that's been posted on this forum, I believe (a 'fair' price currently is somewhere in the high 40s).

I don't know the situation about ownership of the LPG - but at that price you would NOT want to pay for it! Maybe you might wish to visit Trading Standards or the CAB?

If you tell us where you are maybe someone can suggest some other possible suppliers - or ways to buy your LPG. The only suppliers which came up were BP, Calor (which you mention) and Shell (now Avanti) and Flogas?
...
Oops, three of us were all replying at the same time!



IN THE LIGHT OF THIS LATER POST BY shibbydibby QUOTING A PRICE FROM CALOR OF 48.34ppl THE FIGURE OF £380 FOR 400 LITRES (i.e. 90.48ppl) WOULD MOST LIKELY BE ' MISREMEMBERED' as suggested in this post by shibbydibby.

..

crazyz

here is a solution although will cost you something, you can change suppliers without the incoming supplier taking on the current tank.

The incoming supplier can install their own tank on your premises within guidelines and Flogas would have to remove their tank free of charge, the bit that will cost you is one you will have to expose the existing under ground tank for them to uplift, provide a new base/excavation for the new tank. This may seem costly but if your gas consumption is average or above an incoming supplier in your area?may install an above ground tank free if you do the civils the under ground? as these are more costly.

Your current tank is illegally sited from what you said as I recently had a friend in Scotland who had the exact same problem and this is what he did.

Its a way out and it would save you money in the long run, I would use your right to terminate under the cool off period and use cylinders until you can find a solution, or tell them this is what you are going to do and they will drop the price even more as they know other supplier will not take you on with your tank under the trees

LadyNolan

Hi all have been a customer of Flogas for 6 years. Price jumped from mid 40's to 73.5p per litre for recent bill. No explanation or notification. Thanks to your thread I've found that I am way out of contract (which was only for 2 years) so am shopping around. Had no deliveries at all last winter and as a family we were left without fuel for weeks. They offered £50. FLOGAS? Steer clear.

HateLPG

I am reproducing this verbatim from the Annexes to the OFT Off-Grid Energy Market Study Report published in Ocober 2011 which are published under the Open Government Licence. It is of something that I don't think is widely advertised or known about and could be of great interest and relevance to some of the people reading this board. For full details, see the relevant sections of the Annexes, which are available for download as a PDF document at: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/market-studies/off-grid/OFT1380annexes.pdf

D.9 Within GB, GDNs [Gas Distribution Networks] are required [my bold] to install a new connection to individual premises for domestic use where the connection is anticipated to consume 73,200* kilowatt hours (kWh) per annum or less and is situated within 23 metres of one of the network's relevant mains.

D.10 Domestic customers seeking a connection may be eligible for a standard charge if the following criteria are met:

• The connection must operate at a pressure equal to or less than two barg, [sic] with no engineering difficulties or other obstacles present that would result in more than 23 metres of pipe being laid to the premises boundary.
• The service will terminate no more than 3 metres above ground level.
• The meter is sited at the front wall of the property or no more than 2 metres along the side wall of the property.
• The individual property does not form part of a multiple development.
• The property is used or proposed to be used mainly or wholly for
domestic purposes.
• There is no existing gas supply to the property.
• The person requesting the connection is the owner or occupier of the premises.

[*73,200kWh equates to a LOT of LPG! The Carbon Trust website (http://www.carbontrust.co.uk/cut-carbon-reduce-costs/calculate/carbon-footprinting/pages/conversion-factors.aspx) quotes the kWh/l value of LPG as 7.08 kWh/l, so you only fall outside this usage level if you are using in excess of 73,200 / 7.08 = 10,339 litres of LPG a year.]

Standard costs apply, dependent on supplier and location. These vary from £215 to £946 in the worst case (for connections in London), and are detailed in Table D.2 of the Appendices.

Subject to certain criteria, some households are even elegible for reduced (or even zero) cost connection to the mains gas supply under a "Fuel Poor network extension scheme":

D.16 A Fuel Poor network extension scheme applies in GB, which aims to enable vulnerable domestic customers to switch to natural gas by helping towards the costs of connecting to the gas network. The scheme involves GDNs partnering with other organisations to provide discounted or free gas connections to those classified as fuel poor.

D.17 Essentially, the scheme enables vulnerable customers to switch to cheaper fuel alternatives than electricity and oil to help alleviate fuel poverty. Funding is provided to the GDNs so they can offer a discount or free charge connection to fuel poor customers, equivalent to the net present value (NPV) of the net transportation revenue it expects to receive from the new customer. In the majority of cases this discount would cover the cost of connection. However, where the cost of the work involved to set up the connection exceeds the value of future income, customers must make a contribution.

D.18 The scheme is only applicable for existing houses that have no gas supply at present and can be used for connecting single properties, as well as villages and flats, to the gas network.

D.19 The scheme was brought in at the Gas Distribution Price Control for the period 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2013 which sets the allowance a network company can recover from its customers through energy bills. Additionally, a discretionary reward scheme operated by Ofgem aims to encourage and reward leading performance of network companies in specific areas of service, including those that facilitate and increase the affordability of network extensions for fuel poor customers.

D.20 In order to be eligible for funding towards the cost of a gas connection, at least one of the following criteria must be satisfied:

• Reside within the 20 per cent most deprived areas in the UK.
• Are eligible for measures under Warm Front (England), Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (Wales), or the Energy Assistance Package (Scotland).
• Fall within the Priority Group (low income households and over 70 years of age) for measures under the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT).
• Are in fuel poverty based on the standard government definition.

D.21 Ofgem is currently reviewing this scheme as part of the next gas distribution price control, which will commence in April 2013.

Sorry for the naff formatting, but hope this is of help to some of you reading this. It would be nice to think that something useful had come out of the OFT "study"

HateLPG

Here are some more interesting and relevant parliamentary extracts, this time from the "Energy Prices debate: Oral Answers to Questions — Scotland" held in the House of Commons at 11:30 am on 9/11/11:

( http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2011-11-09a.271.3)


Q. Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Liberal Democrat)

One of the key groups of customers facing high energy prices this year is those who are not on the gas main and heat their homes with oil, LPG and other fuels. At the moment, sadly, Ofgem does not have a remit for them. Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether there is any way that those suppliers can be made to engage with their vulnerable consumers in the same way as mains gas suppliers have to?

A. Michael Moore (Secretary of State, Scotland; Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Liberal Democrat)

My colleagues in the Department for Energy and Climate Change will meet to discuss this in the next few weeks. My hon. Friend is right to highlight the issue, and I look forward to picking it up with him at some time in the near future.

Q. Michael Weir (Angus, Scottish National Party)

Yesterday the Secretary of State for DECC sent a letter to all MPs promoting the Government’s policy of check, switch and insulate, but how does the Secretary of State suggest that off-grid customers can check or switch when in many areas there is a virtual monopoly on home fuel oil?

A. Michael Moore (Secretary of State, Scotland; Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Liberal Democrat)

As I said in answer to my hon. Friend Sir Robert Smith, we want to discuss these issues. Representing a big rural area without gas grid access, I recognise that this is an important matter, and I am happy to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman too.

shibbydibby

thanks to all for your replies, Calor turned up today to fill up but I wasnt in so they were turned away. Will call them today and get a few things sorted! I guess the figures previoulsy supplied may have been inaccurate . .but that will soon be dealt with!

shibbydibby

Hello fellow forumsters .. quoted today 48.34p per litre irrespective of quantity or contract ..