EPC Plc fine from Hungry

jmhansford · 6 October 2014 at 10:49AM

Hi there,

I am hoping that I can get some advice regarding a EPC Plc fine for using a vehicle on a road subject to a fee.

Basically, I lent my wife's car to a colleague at work so that he could travel to Eastern Europe for work.

Clearly he has travelled on a road that he should have paid a road charge for and because the car is in my name I have received the fine.

Normally I would just pass this to the company and I am sure that they would pay it, but they have closed down during the interim period and both I and my colleague are redundant now.

I have contacted EPC (possibly a mistake) to inform them that I was not driving and was in the UK at the time. I was hoping that reason would prevail and that I would not continue to be chased for something I didn't do and had no knowledge had happened.

So my questions is:

1. Are they actually able to legally come after me for an action that I did not commit, nor was a party to (i.e. in the car at the time)?

2. What should I do - just ignore them?

Thanks in advance.

bod1467 · 6 October 2014 at 10:52AM

EPC Plc = http://www.epcplc.com/ ?

Probably the easiest approach is to simply WRITE back to whoever is claiming the charge, giving the name and service address of the driver. Tell them that this letter discharges any liability you may have had for this charge.

That way it should deflect their attention to the person who is responsible for it. HE can then decide what he wants to do (pay, appeal, ignore).

Perhaps wait for other replies first though. Others may have a better-informed opinion.

Coupon-mad · 6 October 2014 at 9:58PM

Found this about Euro Parking Collection but I seem to recall most forums say ignore it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22189967

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/404341/DVLA-shops-drivers-over-foreign-parking-fines

Consensus here was to ignore:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4878228

HTH

jmhansford · 6 October 2014 at 10:01PM

Thanks both for the reply.

I think I will just ignore it to be honest! I cannot see how any law can hold me liable for an action I did not commit and can prove I did not commit.

Cheers,

Coupon-mad · 6 October 2014 at 10:54PM

Well in this country the law does exactly that with private parking tickets and real Council ones (keeper liability applies in England/Wales, even if not driving). But that's another story. Never ignore a PCN in the UK, come here for help first.

Redx · 7 October 2014 at 2:08PM

jmhansford wrote: »

Thanks both for the reply.

I think I will just ignore it to be honest! I cannot see how any law can hold me liable for an action I did not commit and can prove I did not commit.

Cheers,

POFA 2012 would appear to differ

same as you are responsible for your kids actions if below certain ages - even if you were not present because they were on their way to school or home , responsible if a tile fell off your roof and hit a passerby - even if you were away at the time, responsible for your dog if it attacks another person or animal even if you did not tell it to do so

its about responsibility, not being culpable or having committed the action , so liability and responsibility

lend you vehicle out whilst 2000 miles away on holiday would not be an excuse , not unless you named the person responsible, so as RK you are responsible - period

this culture of "wasnt me guv, I wasnt responsible" wont wash

bazster · 7 October 2014 at 2:44PM

I'm sorry Redx but that's tosh. Even under English law the things for which a vehicle keeper can be held liable for are very limited.

There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of offences that could be committed by someone driving my car. There are very, very few of them that I as keeper could be held liable for. Speeding yes, jumping red lights yes, basically the things that can be nabbed by camera. Virtually all of the others, nope.

It's similar with contract law. Private parking charges yes, under the very limited circumstances set out in PoFA 2012. Decrim parking fines, yes. Can't think of anything else. If someone borrows my car, gets lashed up and drives through someone's flowerbed I am liable neither for drink-driving nor for replacing the petunias.

Am I liable if my dog bites someone? Probably. But am I liable if my cat bites someone, or my pigeon dumps on someone's washing? Of course not. Am I liable if someone borrows my hammer and smashes a window with it? Or batters someone to death with it? What do you think?

I am not liable for almost anything that anyone does with almost any of my possessions, and its exactly the same with my car. There is a very, very limited set of very minor things I could be held liable for but beyond that, nope, it's entirely down to the driver.

And that's English law. God only knows what Hungarian law says, but if I were the OP I'd ignore it completely unless I planned to visit Hungary in the same vehicle in the forseeable future.

Redx · 7 October 2014 at 2:51PM

I agree there is a lot people are not responsible for, but there are many examples where people are responsible for something where the problem wasnt committed by themselves , so I was just mentioning a few cases where this is the case

my nephew got a fine and points for a bald tyre on his works vehicle not long ago, the thought he wasnt liable as his boss owns the vehicle so tried to use this as a defence (didnt work), but his boss is jointly responsible as its his job to ensure the health and safety of his workforce and so can be reported for a defective vehicle , but my nephew is also responsible for checking the vehicle is roadworthy and has valid insurance etc before leaving the depot

so yes, tosh in many cases like cat bites but not always tosh

my actual point is that people always think they are not responsible for something when it happens , like Schettini leaving his ship when it was sinking

its a problem this culture of "not my problem m8" - that is what I am trying to get across

so if this OP is the RK, then if POFA 2012 applies he is or could be held liable even if he wasnt driving, nor in the country , even if he cannot drive , but I do agree he can probably ignore this invoice

however, this is what annoyed me

I cannot see how any law can hold me liable for an action I did not commit and can prove I did not commit.

had this been meadowhall or fistral beach or willen lakes or the Peel Centre then he can definitely be held liable even if he was in tenerife at the time and cannot even drive

so in various circumstances that statement is a load of tosh, its not a valid defence for each and every scenario

you know as well as I do that you, me , coupon mad and many others could write about dozens of scenarios where this person would be held liable and accountable for something that they did not actually do or commit themselves

StaffsSW · 7 October 2014 at 2:55PM

Remind them that the United Kingdom has chosen not to opt in to the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive 2011/82/EU, therefore there is no valid mechanism for legal enforcement of the charge.

bazster · 7 October 2014 at 3:41PM

Redx, you seem to be totally confused about whether you are making a point about morality or a point about legalities.

I agree that people should take responsibility for their own actions. That is totally and utterly not the same as being responsible for someone else's actions simply because they were temporarily in possession of my property.

From the point of view of moral responsibility I couldn't give a stuff what PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 says. If someone borrows my car and parks it where they shouldn't I am not responsible for their actions, and the law that tries to make me liable (not the same as "responsible") is a very bad law (indeed an immoral law).

System · 7 October 2014 at 4:17PM

StaffsSW wrote: »

Remind them that the United Kingdom has chosen not to opt in to the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive 2011/82/EU, therefore there is no valid mechanism for legal enforcement of the charge.

Then call them again and remind them that you are talking a load of "£$%^^ because that directive was annulled by the ECJ in 2012

EPC Plc fine from Hungry

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