Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

[Mark2spark]

TC are blatantly ignoring what the ECJ have clarified. They appear to be claiming that regular servicing is all they need to do, and that breakdowns/failures of serviceable parts within the aircraft thus count as extraordinary circumstances.
The ECJ recently made two rulings, and the pertaining parts are:
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Sturgeon judgment held that:

Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that a technical problem in an aircraft which leads to the cancellation or delay of a flight is not covered by the concept of "extraordinary circumstances" within the meaning of that provision, unless that problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control.
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Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia held that:

Article 5(3) of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004... must be interpreted as meaning that a technical problem in an aircraft which leads to the cancellation of a flight is not covered by the concept of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ within the meaning of that provision, unless that problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control.

The fact that an air carrier has complied with the minimum rules on maintenance of an aircraft cannot in itself suffice to establish that that carrier has taken ‘all reasonable measures’ within the meaning of Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 and, therefore, to relieve that carrier of its obligation to pay compensation provided for by Articles 5(1)(c) and 7(1) of that regulation.
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So, replacing, lets say a broken oxygen mask in the cockpit (which happened to me in 2005 resulting in a 4 hr delay to Tenerife), *is* part of the 'control of the airline'.
It's not something that they have to wait for Air Traffic Control to give the go-ahead on.
Yet if the runway is shut due to snow/ice, then *yes* they DO have to wait for Air Traffic Control to open the runway up, and it's NOT something that is within the airlines control.

Hope this clarifies it for people, in my layman's way of understanding it

[JPears]

with so many potential claimants here, is it possible to set up a database to corroborate flight details and given reasons for delay?

[Mark2spark]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beech

This is what Thomas Cook have sent me.

Aircraft can experience technical problems that are totally unforeseen, despite all reasonable attempts to ensure they are maintained to a good standard, in line with CAA regulations. These situations can be compared to the maintenance of your own car, which can break down at any time without prior warning, regardless of it's service history, and would be considered completely beyond the owners control.

Yes, but NOT an extraordinary circumstance.

[Mark2spark]

Originally Posted by JPears

with so many potential claimants here, is it possible to set up a database to corroborate flight details and given reasons for delay?

It's a great idea. The best way is to read the whole thread and contact by pm other posters with the same details as yourself. Then follow the thread on a daily basis and pm matching newcomers with the info you already have.
Luckily for me, so far, no-one else matches my flight delay experience.

[JPears]

So where ever possible, peeps should put flight number, airline and dates as a heading? That could be useful.

[Mark2spark]

Yeah, a good few do JP, but not all

[roborts]

Hi, new here.

I have entered into email correspondence with Thomas Cook over the above delayed flight on the 17/10/2012.

I have received my first 'extraordinary circumstances' excuse reply. I am awaiting their clarification on what was extraordinary about not having the right part to fit to the aircraft when it was serviced.

I have also emailed the ECJ advising them of TC's apparent disregard for the rulings as I will look at the possibility of referring my complaint to them.

Any thoughts?

Paul

[gmar96]

Hi in 2008 OasisHongKong went into admin...I was one of the passengers that day stranded but at least in the UK. I would be right to assume that this ECJ rule doesn't apply here? i know it's a bit daft cos the airline's been bust for 5 years so who pays?... but just confirm to me please anyone.

Gman

[Centipede100]

Originally Posted by gmar96

Hi in 2008 OasisHongKong went into admin...I was one of the passengers that day stranded but at least in the UK. I would be right to assume that this ECJ rule doesn't apply here? i know it's a bit daft cos the airline's been bust for 5 years so who pays?... but just confirm to me please anyone.

Gman

Airline bust = no claim

[johnisworried]

Hi all,

I wrote to Easyjet four years ago because my flight was delayed and I missed a gig I was being paid for. I remember being over three hours late, and the title of the email I sent even reads "This flight was over three hours late..."

So I wrote to them recently, after looking at flightstats.co.uk. This is what the flightstats website shows:

Scheduled departure: 7:45pm
Scheduled arrival: 11:15pm
Actual departure: 10:33pm (runway)
Estimated arrival: 11:42pm (runway)

Easyjet responded:

"We can confirm that the details regarding your booking clearly state that the original 'Scheduled time of Arrival' was 23.15 local time / 21.12 UTC. The Actual time of arrival was 01.41 local / 23.41 UTC. Therefore, your flight was delayed by 2 hours and 26 minutes."

Doesn't really make much sense does it? Does runway time not include taxi-ing? Any thoughts? I was definitely leaving the plane three hours after we were meant to arrive.

[poet123]

Can anyone give me the other flight checker site links aside from Flighstats please. I had forgotten about a delayed flight to Newquay earlier this year but cannnot find the actual dealy time on the flightstats database.

[missyhol]

Hi there - I currently have an issue open with First Choice Holidays. As well as experiencing a couple of niggles in the resort (which should be sorted out soon). Our plane was used as a replacement for the previous days scheduled flight as that plan had technical difficulties. We were told in the resort that we would have a 12 hour delay and instead of leaving the resort at 10am for a 4pm flight we left at 10pm for a 4am flight which wasn't too bad. However, it seems that the airport shuts down from 11pm as , nothing was open, the kids were tired so trying to pass 5hrs away in an empty closed airport was rather trying! The plane that was sent to take us back to Gatwick from Cancun arrived considerably earlier in the day, but because the flight attendants could only work a certain amount of hours, the delay was due to them needing rest and recuperation. The plane they sent as a replacement was a short haul plane so an 8 hr flight in even more cramped seats was less than satisfactory (especially when we had already paid for an upgrade - which we should be receiving a refund for). I contacted first choice at the beginning of November and saw the EU ruling so added that to my list of requests for compensation. I have just chased today and have been told that it is at least an 8 week delay and Thompson/First Choice are currently in negotiations with their legal team to understand what they may offer. I did say that it appears that the levels of compensation seem to be non negotiable as they operate in a tiered format. So I have already waited 4 weeks and have told them that I expect to be dealt with shortly regarding this. - Watch this space!

[roborts]

ECJ have been back in touch. They don't deal with breaches of their rulings.

Still waiting for TC to reply to my last email.

Paul

[Mark2spark]

Originally Posted by roborts

ECJ have been back in touch. They don't deal with breaches of their rulings.

Still waiting for TC to reply to my last email.

Paul

I read your first response but thought it was a spelling error, and that you had meant CAA instead of ECJ.
After you have the 2nd fob off, perhaps contact the CAA?

[Mark2spark]

Originally Posted by missyhol

Hi there - I currently have an issue open with First Choice Holidays. As well as experiencing a couple of niggles in the resort (which should be sorted out soon). Our plane was used as a replacement for the previous days scheduled flight as that plan had technical difficulties. We were told in the resort that we would have a 12 hour delay and instead of leaving the resort at 10am for a 4pm flight we left at 10pm for a 4am flight which wasn't too bad. However, it seems that the airport shuts down from 11pm as , nothing was open, the kids were tired so trying to pass 5hrs away in an empty closed airport was rather trying! The plane that was sent to take us back to Gatwick from Cancun arrived considerably earlier in the day, but because the flight attendants could only work a certain amount of hours, the delay was due to them needing rest and recuperation. The plane they sent as a replacement was a short haul plane so an 8 hr flight in even more cramped seats was less than satisfactory (especially when we had already paid for an upgrade - which we should be receiving a refund for). I contacted first choice at the beginning of November and saw the EU ruling so added that to my list of requests for compensation. I have just chased today and have been told that it is at least an 8 week delay and Thompson/First Choice are currently in negotiations with their legal team to understand what they may offer. I did say that it appears that the levels of compensation seem to be non negotiable as they operate in a tiered format. So I have already waited 4 weeks and have told them that I expect to be dealt with shortly regarding this. - Watch this space!

IMO it's not worth filing a MCOL just yet, might as well wait for the response from FC.
Seeing what they 'may' offer, might be a deal of travel vouchers at 10% excess of the statutory table of compensation, similar to what Monarch are offering (see their claim form on Blindmans link).

[Mark2spark]

Originally Posted by johnisworried

Hi all,

I wrote to Easyjet four years ago because my flight was delayed and I missed a gig I was being paid for. I remember being over three hours late, and the title of the email I sent even reads "This flight was over three hours late..."

So I wrote to them recently, after looking at flightstats.co.uk. This is what the flightstats website shows:

Scheduled departure: 7:45pm
Scheduled arrival: 11:15pm
Actual departure: 10:33pm (runway)
Estimated arrival: 11:42pm (runway)

Easyjet responded:

"We can confirm that the details regarding your booking clearly state that the original 'Scheduled time of Arrival' was 23.15 local time / 21.12 UTC. The Actual time of arrival was 01.41 local / 23.41 UTC. Therefore, your flight was delayed by 2 hours and 26 minutes."

Doesn't really make much sense does it? Does runway time not include taxi-ing? Any thoughts? I was definitely leaving the plane three hours after we were meant to arrive.

I agree, it doesn't make much sense. But it appears that the time that the wheels touch the ground is the defining moment.
Without some other sort of evidence you appear to be stuck.

[rusty frog]

Originally Posted by Mark2spark

I agree, it doesn't make much sense. But it appears that the time that the wheels touch the ground is the defining moment.
Without some other sort of evidence you appear to be stuck.

Flightstats appear to give arrival times as "gate" times which are more realistic.

However, if we plan to use the above as part of our evidence, will it not confuse things if airline use touchdown?

[Andy_International]

So, I have just received this from Monarch as 'advice' before filling out the formal form requesting compensation:

You may not be entitled to compensation despite suffering a delayed flight where the delay was caused by Extraordinary Circumstances. The CAA has issued guidance on the meaning of Extraordinary Circumstances as including but not limited to the following:
a) Aircraft technical faults discovered just before flight or during the flight concerned;
b) Damage to the aircraft caused by:
 Acts of sabotage or terrorism;
 Bird strike;
 Ground incurred damage (i.e. baggage truck, air bridges);
 Lightning strike;
 Pepperpot event (eg large hailstones);
 Severe turbulence;
 Heavy landing; or
 Foreign object damage;
c) Catastrophic engine failure or engine surge;
d) De-pressurisation;
e) Electronic hardware / software ‘conflicts’ which indicate that the aircraft is not fit to fly and which cannot easily be cleared;
f) Hidden manufacturing defect that impinges on flight safety;
g) Meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned;
h) Security risks;
i) Unexpected flight safety shortcomings;
j) Strikes; or
k) Political instability.

I'm trying to think if there could be a reason why a plane could be delayed that is not included on that list...

[jpsartre]

The list is incorrect anyway so it doesn't matter. Is that really a CAA issued guidance list or did Monarch just make that up?

[Cornball]

I've been trying to claim from Air Transat for a flight from Toronto to London but they are denying the rule applies to them as they aren't an EU airline. They have a registered UK office listed on Companies House but they say that's just for 'ticket sales'. Do I still have a right to make a claim?