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Seeking advice
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Thomask
Posts: 557 Forumite
Hi
I've only recently started driving in the UK where the road rules are very different compared with back home in New Zealand.
I recently carried out a job for a company which involved driving a large rental van.
The agency phoned me today to advise me they had received 2 Penalty Charge Notices for the same offence. Both offences occurred within 24 hours of one another on the same stretch of road.
The Penalty Charge Notices, issued by the Islington Council, were for the following alleged contravention:
32JP Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign.
It goes on to state the alleged contravention was noted by a CCTV camera operator who was 'observing real time pictures from a roadside camera at the time stated'.
As mentioned, the road markings back home are very different. From the photographic evidence I see they are referring to a road near my house broken up by 2 individual islands, both forming part of a large diamond shape painted onto the road. The diamond is filled with diagonal lines.
On both occasions I have driven down the centre of the road, between both islands. In complete honestly I thought this was the correct thing to do as a space had been left large enough for the van to get through. The van would not physically fit down either side of the islands. In addition there is a sign in the shape of a circle giving measurements which I assumed were to use to determine whether your vehicle could get through the sides. I also had no idea what the diamond shape and diagonal lines referred to.
I'm really upset as both fines are £120.00 each (or £60.00 at the reduced rate) and I made a genuine honest mistake (yet still don't understand how vans the size of mine are meant to get through).
How am I best to appeal these charges?
Am I best to appeal based on mitigating circumstances taking the following into account:
- First offence in that council's boundary. The offences occurred due to a change in my country of residence and not fully understanding the new road markings. In addition, the second offense occured due to having only just recieved notification that the first time I had done it was also wrong.
- I am a law abiding citizen and made an honest mistake and are now fully aware of the driving restrictions. What adds weight to this point is the fact the same offence was committed twice within 24 hours on the same stretch of road!
Or should I appeal due to the following:
There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority:
- Both tickets claim the fine will be reduced if paid within 14 days. Both offences were caught on CCTV and the tickets posted therefore from reading Martin's guide it appears for a offence caught on CCTV and posted it must read that the fine will be reduced if paid within '21' days, not '14'. Is this correct?
Can I appeal under both these headings?
Am I best to appeal on 2 separate letters or keep the case as 1?
Is it worth taking photos?
The company I worked for rented the van from a rental agency. The tickets clearly state 'you are legally responsible for dealing with this notice. Do not pass it onto the driver'. The van was rented in the company's name and address. What's interesting is both tickets have my name attached yet on the second ticket my surname is spelt incorrectly. Is it likely the company passed on my details to the council or can rental firm? Who is ultimately liable and responsible for ensuring these fines are paid? Both tickets have the address of the company.
As these tickets were sent by post am I correct in saying the appeal process would begin at the 'formal appeal' stage rather than the 'informal appeal stage'. I don't want to lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate if I'm unsuccessful along the line.
Finally, the address given on the ticket is a PO Box address. Can letters be sent by recorded delivery to PO Box addresses?
Thank you very much for reading this and any suggestions would be of great help.
I've only recently started driving in the UK where the road rules are very different compared with back home in New Zealand.
I recently carried out a job for a company which involved driving a large rental van.
The agency phoned me today to advise me they had received 2 Penalty Charge Notices for the same offence. Both offences occurred within 24 hours of one another on the same stretch of road.
The Penalty Charge Notices, issued by the Islington Council, were for the following alleged contravention:
32JP Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign.
It goes on to state the alleged contravention was noted by a CCTV camera operator who was 'observing real time pictures from a roadside camera at the time stated'.
As mentioned, the road markings back home are very different. From the photographic evidence I see they are referring to a road near my house broken up by 2 individual islands, both forming part of a large diamond shape painted onto the road. The diamond is filled with diagonal lines.
On both occasions I have driven down the centre of the road, between both islands. In complete honestly I thought this was the correct thing to do as a space had been left large enough for the van to get through. The van would not physically fit down either side of the islands. In addition there is a sign in the shape of a circle giving measurements which I assumed were to use to determine whether your vehicle could get through the sides. I also had no idea what the diamond shape and diagonal lines referred to.
I'm really upset as both fines are £120.00 each (or £60.00 at the reduced rate) and I made a genuine honest mistake (yet still don't understand how vans the size of mine are meant to get through).
How am I best to appeal these charges?
Am I best to appeal based on mitigating circumstances taking the following into account:
- First offence in that council's boundary. The offences occurred due to a change in my country of residence and not fully understanding the new road markings. In addition, the second offense occured due to having only just recieved notification that the first time I had done it was also wrong.
- I am a law abiding citizen and made an honest mistake and are now fully aware of the driving restrictions. What adds weight to this point is the fact the same offence was committed twice within 24 hours on the same stretch of road!
Or should I appeal due to the following:
There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority:
- Both tickets claim the fine will be reduced if paid within 14 days. Both offences were caught on CCTV and the tickets posted therefore from reading Martin's guide it appears for a offence caught on CCTV and posted it must read that the fine will be reduced if paid within '21' days, not '14'. Is this correct?
Can I appeal under both these headings?
Am I best to appeal on 2 separate letters or keep the case as 1?
Is it worth taking photos?
The company I worked for rented the van from a rental agency. The tickets clearly state 'you are legally responsible for dealing with this notice. Do not pass it onto the driver'. The van was rented in the company's name and address. What's interesting is both tickets have my name attached yet on the second ticket my surname is spelt incorrectly. Is it likely the company passed on my details to the council or can rental firm? Who is ultimately liable and responsible for ensuring these fines are paid? Both tickets have the address of the company.
As these tickets were sent by post am I correct in saying the appeal process would begin at the 'formal appeal' stage rather than the 'informal appeal stage'. I don't want to lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate if I'm unsuccessful along the line.
Finally, the address given on the ticket is a PO Box address. Can letters be sent by recorded delivery to PO Box addresses?
Thank you very much for reading this and any suggestions would be of great help.
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Comments
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I would take some photos if you can and if you can remove personal details from the PCN's such as the ref no and the reg no. of the van and then scan and post the entire PCN on here. It will allow someone to take a good look at the PCN to ensure it is fully complient with the law."You should know not to believe everything in media & polls by now !"
John539 2-12-14 Post 150300 -
Martin's info is either duff (some definitely is) or you have read something referring to parking. Yours is moving traffic and different legislation applies.
Really need to see it - ALL of it.0 -
Thanks for the fast responses. It's difficult for me to get access to a scanner. If someone was kind enough to send me their email by private message I could forward the images to them?0
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Thanks for the fast responses. It's difficult for me to get access to a scanner. If someone was kind enough to send me their email by private message I could forward the images to them?
Pin docs flat on a door/noticeboard and borrow/use digi camera in close up mode from head on.
Otherwise - internet cafe/small pc repair shop have facilities sometimes.
Host images on 'Tinypic' cos by far the easiest and you don't even need to register. Then use the direct IMG code for forums and pic will pop up here.
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Front of first ticket.
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Back of first ticket
Mm/0 -
Front of second ticket
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Back of second ticket
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You're not easy to work with!
Did you think to look back at your posts and see if the images were readable?
I don't understand - if you have them on the PC already then why can you not simply host them on tinypic and post the direct IMG links as I said?
You will need to convert to jpeg and I'm an IT numpty so can't tell you how to do that.
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Hi Thomas, how did you get the images into a PDF? Do you have the raw jpg image files?
If so, I suggest you have a read of sra's guide to Posting Pictures to get those uploaded and online as we need to be able to see the wording. Sometimes tinypic can resize images so if you can read the text on your computer it's possible tinypic has reduced it, try flickr which retains the original sizes and resolutions.
If you need further help with the pictures, it'd be best if you posted on the Techie Board for help and advice.0
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