Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Hi, just adding some information incase it might help anyone.

Got an email from [STRIKE]the cowboys[/STRIKE] Flogas today saying that the lpg price will be going up by 8p a litre due to the Middle East crisis (as of 31st March). Am in south-west Scotland.

So, am going from 35p a litre to 43p a litre. An almost 20% jump, with a ridiculous 2 days warning from Flogas. Now, compared to what other people seem to be paying on here, I'm not really complaining, and also we were originally offered the 35p fixed rate till March 31st 2011 on the basis of renewing our contract last year.

I called them today and asked if we order a refill today, will we get it at the current price of 35p a litre, they said yes, as the order will be in before the increase takes effect. So, basically we won't really feel the price increase until maybe October or so, when we next refill as we don't really use much from April-ish till September-ish. I did not even go into the argument of the increase with them, because there is no point, it makes no difference.

However, this increase equates to roughly £300-£350 a year increase for us, or £72 on the average tank. Disgraceful Flogas!

The email from Flogas also says, "Following the success of the winter fixed price period, it is our hope to be able to contact you later this year with another fixed deal, offering you price security through the winter months."

With the Scottish elections coming up, this is something I will be asking the candidates about, and I will write to all of my local MP's to see what they say about it. If there is anything else I can do to help, please let me know because the same as everyone else on here, we are sick and tired of being at the butt of the lgp gangsters.

PS: Don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread, but do we know what sorts of profits Flogas, Calor etc are making? (I shall go back and read through the thread and try to find the info if it's not already been mentioned)

I hope Budgie doesn't have to wait as long as we did to get a refill from Flogas. Just to add to their December debacle - we ordered online over a month ago. Having had no delivery and having an almost empty tank, I checked online and found 'cancelled' by the order. Reassurance was received to our anxious phone-call to explain that cancelled didn't mean cancelled - it meant a tanker had broken down. A phone call the next day assured us we would be getting gas last Wednesday. Guess what -no gas. Today's phone call elicited another promise that it was on its way as we spoke. Well did it arrive almost two hours later. We live 10 or so miles from the Buckfastleigh depot and less than 3 miles from the A38, so hardly the back of beyond...... Flogas=Slowgas!

GrandadRob wrote: »

:j:jGot a letter from my new supplier today, welcoming me, and informing me that I am no longer a Flogas customer.


I'm free........................I'm FREE..............I'M FREE.....:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j:j

Wonderful to have some good news on here for a change!

So, come on then, GrandadRob, spill the beans: When and where is the party to celebrate your timely release?

:beer:

Here are some interesting contract snippets (well I think they are, anyway), prompted by GrandadRob's recent experiences. They would be particularly relevant if you are:

1. tied into a contract (e.g. with Flogas) that you want to get out of early and with no penalty, and
2. are contemplating moving or re-siting your tank anyway (e.g. to install an underground tank) or alternatively you have somewhere better to move it to that will meet with the requirements of the regulations and you are happy to accept the disruption and cost associated with that. (NOTE: As you would very likely incur the cost and disruption of having to re-site your tank anyway if you change supplier, it is arguable that any such costs or disruption are irrelevant in this context.)

What is interesting is that if your tank as it is now is not compliant with the regulations, then this can in some cases lead to an automagic [;)] termination of the agreement by the supplier, with no further liability on you, the consumer.

Flogas (2010 & 2011)

4.1 We shall not be required to deliver LPG where access to a Tank has changed so that in our opinion if is no longer sufficient and/or safe to do so.

4.2 If, In our reasonable opinion, we are prevented from delivering LPG for whatever reason, we may at our option supply LPG by an alternative means or cancel the Agreement by giving you one month's written notice.

4.3 If, pursuant to clause 4.2 above we deliver LPG by an alternative means for mare than 2 months, you may cancel the Agreement upon giving us one month's written notice.

BP (2009)

9.1 If BP or a representative for BP conducts a site survey at the Buyer's premises (as specified overleaf) and does not approve the premises for the supply of LP Gas, this Agreement shall immediately terminate.

Both Flogas and BP are explicit that it has to be them (or one of their representatives in the case of BP) who determines whether or not the site is "approved". This begs an interesting supplementary question: What would be the fall-out on them if they (or one of their representatives) passed the tank as being safe but it was subsequently deemed illegal/unsafe as the result of a local government inspection? (I'll leave that question hanging in the air )

Of course, you will need to make sure that you haven't done anything prohibited by the terms of the contract - and some contracts can be very strict in this respect!

Shell take a somewhat different approach and are quite explicit on these matters, from which it is reasonable to conclude that (in theory at least) they will in no way ever consider supplying to a tank that is not fully compliant with the regulations from the outset:

Shell (2010)

3.2.1 (j) You must notify us of only significant external changes to the Premises (including the Access) to enable us to ensure that these changes do not break any laws, rules, regulations or codes of practice applicable to the delivery and storage of Gas and the installation of the Tank;

and

11.1 We will install the Tank in accordance with the law and the Codes in force as at the date of installation.

11.2 You must inform us in writing of any works which you intend to carry out in the Tank safety area (which is shown on the Tank Installation Drawing). We will confirm to you whether or not these works are acceptable within 14 days of receiving your notice informing us of these works. If you carry out these works without getting our approval beforehand, and these works cause the Tank or its safety area to break the Codes in force at that time, you will need to pay for any works which we then need to do in order to make the Tank and/or its safety area compliant with these Codes. If, in our reasonable opinion, it is not possible to make the Tank and/or its safety area compliant with these Codes, we may end this Agreement immediately by giving you notice in writing and remove the Tank (and any Gas in it) under Clause 7.8 above.

11.3 If a change to the Codes in force causes the Tank and/or its safety area to break the Codes, we both will enter into discussions with one another to decide how best to make the Tank and/or the safety area compliant with the Codes, as well as how the costs of these works are to be divided between us both. If we both cannot reach agreement in relation to this, either of us may end this Agreement immediately by sending notice to the other. In these circumstances, we may remove the Tank (and any Gas in it) under Clause 7.8 above.

Calor sort of "skirt" around the issue, giving a whole long list of things that you may/may not do in respect of tank siting, but making no statement in regards to termination in respect of the tank being non-compliant, other than statements of the customer's liability should the customer be in breach of contract;

These are just "typical" examples drawn from recent contracts of the larger suppliers and are ofered as "food for thought". All contracts are different, and suppliers quite frequently change the small print of their contracts (even if the variations are minor), so, as always, you would need to check your specific contract very carefully.

One final point. The regulations relating to tank siting are there for a very good reason: To protect you, your loved ones and your property in the unlikely event that something does go wrong. Remember, LPG is denser than air, so it can "pool" in the event of any unwanted escape, and if it makes friends with a source of ignition, it is likely to go up with an almighty bang. So if you know (or suspect) that your tank does not comply with the regulations, it would be sensible to get it sorted out anyway. If you read my earlier post quoting the HSE on tank siting (Tank siting - some definitive answers), you will see that just because your tank does not meet with the regulations, that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be moved: in some cases, alternative approaches (such as installing a fire wall) may provide an appropriate solution to the problem.

An interesting quote here from Faye Spiers of UKLPG, in the context of the OFT market study into off-mains energy:

"The exceptionally cold weather for Northwest Europe at the end of last year [2010] boosted LPG prices to record levels, but the high prices have proved temporary and LPG rates have fallen with demand in January, despite a rise in crude prices."

Someone ought to tell Flogas!