Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG · 20 March 2011 at 10:13PM

Further to LittleVermin's post #840 below, you could add:

Highland Business Services
Borders Machinery Ring Limited
Mole Valley Farmers
Anglia Farmers

None of whom is (to the best of my knowledge) currently a UKLPG member; All of whom supply domestic bulk LPG. I'm sure there will be others - these are just a few that I could identify quickly!

I fully accept that it is not easy to find suppliers other than those returned by the ukplg search tool and they are few and far between, but they do exist. Hopefully we can now lay to rest once and for all the question of whether or not the uklpg search tool returns a comprehensive list of suppliers: It does not.

I would go one stage further and suggest that the most positive outcome of this whole discussion would be that if anyone here does know of any Domestic Bulk LPG suppliers that do NOT appear on the UKLPG search it would be extremely helpful to many users if they could (without making it an "advert" that will get pulled) at least post a company name and approximate area of operation here, so that other users in that area will at least know of the existence of possible alternative suppliers.

HateLPG · 22 March 2011 at 9:08AM

"Well no one who has to pay the energy bills in their household will have been surprised by the findings of the industry regulator today that the energy companies have been bamboozling us"
Jeremy Paxman, Newsnight, 21st March 2011

I suggest that a lot of the analysis presented holds equally true for the LPG market, not least:

the "ratchet effect" on pricing that was demonstrated (and I think I have alluded to on here before) and

the interesting comments on the effectiveness of competition where there are six or fewer major players in the market.

This is well worth a watch, especially if you are considering making a submission to the OFT enquiry.

It is currently availablee on BBC iPlayer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zw0nz) and will be for the next seven days (until 28 March, I believe). The relevant item starts at 41mins and 3 seconds into the stream.

HateLPG · 22 March 2011 at 7:41PM

Following on from GrandadRob's tank-siting woes (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=41822044&postcount=783 and other posts) and the ensuing discussion, I thought that it might be of use to everyone on this forum to seek clarification directly from the HSE, rather than relying on "helpful conjecture". I sent them a fairly comprehensive set of questions, and they have now replied as follows (for the sake of clarifty, I have underlined and bolded the specific questions that I asked them, and indented the HSE comments and posted them in blue):

It may be useful to note that in most cases the LPG tank (& pipework up to and including the first regulator (valve)) is owned by the LPG supplier, however the pipework leaving the first regulator and travelling into the property is likely to be owned by the property owner. The exact demarcation of ownership will be listed within the contract with your LPG supplier.

1. What are the regulations relating to small-scale domestic bulk LPG installations and where can I find copies of these?

The Health & Safety Executive have not produced guidance on the siting of small-scale domestic bulk LPG installations as we do not enforce at domestic premises (except for work activities) , only commercial premises. However the guidance for siting a domestic bulk LPG tank is the same as for a commercial installation. UKLPG are a trade association who produce a series of 'codes of practice' for industry, which are recognised as good practice and all HSE and Local Authority inspectors use these when inspecting LPG installations (we do not produce our own guidance). These are priced publications and details can be obtained from UKLPGs website (www.uklpg.org).

Industry guidance recommends that a ‘separation distance’ around the LPG tank be maintained to reduce any impact of a tank fire on your property or thermal radiation from a perimeter fire adversely affecting the LPG tank. In most cases I have dealt with, the reason for LPG tanks not meeting current standards is related to the separation distance being breached. All weeds, long grass, shrubs, wooden structures, vehicles etc. (sources of ignition) must be removed from within the separation distance to avoid a fire hazard.

The separation distance is calculated on the total capacity of LPG your tank can hold. For example:

A 0.25 tonne tank (or less) has a separation distance of 2.5m around the tank.

0.25 to 1.1 tonne tank has a separation distance of 3m around the tank.

2. Have the regulations substantively changed in the 20 years, and if so, when?

No, the LPG guidance supporting the regulations have not changed substantially in the last twenty years. If the siting of the tank does not meet the recognised industry guidance now then it is likely that one of two options has occurred. (i) there has been further development around the area of the tank since it was installed resulting in the separation distance around the tank being encroached upon or (ii) the tank did not meet the industry guidance at the time of its installation.

3. If there is a contract in place, and the vessel complied with regulations at the time the initial supply contract was signed, is there a waiver to permit continued supply?

No, this is not the case. There are options that you can consider to mitigate the effects of an LPG fire / leak which can reduce the size of the separation distance. Examples are installing a fire wall, erecting a vapour diversion wall etc. You should discuss your options with your LPG supplier.

4. If such a waiver exists, is it conferred upon the vessel or the contract holder?

No such waiver exists.

5. If it can be shown that the householder believes in good faith that the vessel is legally sited or was legally sited at the time any contract was signed, does the supplier then have full liability to ensure that the vessel is brought into line with those regulations if the vessel was not legally sited at the time they entered into a supply agreement? In respect of this, I note specifically in your information sheet, "Use of LPG in small bulk tanks" that it is stated that "The installer must ensure that LPG tanks are located in a safe place and have all the necessary safety devices to protect the tanks, pipework and any LPG appliances attached to them."

As explained previously, the LPG supplier in most cases owns the tank and should not deliver to an LPG tank that does not meet the standards laid out in the UKLPG code of practice 1 part 1. If your tank does not meet this guidance / standards then no suppliers should be delivering to it and you should talk to your current supplier to discuss options for upgrading it to meet the current guidance. It appears to me that other LPG suppliers may be reluctant to 'take on' a deficient tank that they will have to replace to meet the industry guidance.

You should note however that if the tank is re-sited, whilst the LPG supplier will be responsible for the cost of this, it is likely the owner of the pipework (ie. the property owner) who will have to pay for the pipework to be re-sited to connect to the new tank. Any new pipework that is laid should also meet current standards, which is the use of plastic (polyethylene) pipework rather than a metal pipe.

I should add, of course, that this is generic advice and each LPG installation may have it's own issues that require further consideration. In the first instance you should approach your supplier to discuss the specific intsllation in question.

Hopefully these answers will prove useful.

Pukka · 23 March 2011 at 12:07PM

Is it me or has Extra's 'March' price gone up twice this month? I'm sure it was 50 something at the beginning of the month, yesterday 51 something and today is 52.49p! How can a monthly price keep changing?

SD-253 · 24 March 2011 at 11:28AM

HateLPG wrote: »

Further to LittleVermin's post #840 below, you could add:
Highland Business Services

Borders Machinery Ring Limited

Mole Valley Farmers

Anglia Farmers

None of whom is (to the best of my knowledge) currently a UKLPG member; All of whom supply domestic bulk LPG. I'm sure there will be others - these are just a few that I could identify quickly!

I fully accept that it is not easy to find suppliers other than those returned by the ukplg search tool and they are few and far between, but they do exist. Hopefully we can now lay to rest once and for all the question of whether or not the uklpg search tool returns a comprehensive list of suppliers: It does not.

I would go one stage further and suggest that the most positive outcome of this whole discussion would be that if anyone here does know of any Domestic Bulk LPG suppliers that do NOT appear on the UKLPG search it would be extremely helpful to many users if they could (without making it an "advert" that will get pulled) at least post a company name and approximate area of operation here, so that other users in that area will at least know of the existence of possible alternative suppliers.

2 of the above companies have categorically stated they do not deliver bulk LPG to domestic customers the other 2 have/will not answer my email.

My email to each company was similar to this:-
Do you sell LPG in bulk to domestic customers? I am unable to find you on the supplier’s site? http://www.uklpg.org/supplier-search/search.php Are you on this site?

Bennets also did not answer my email BUT when I rung Calor Gas they "appeared" to be implying that Bennets were just delivering for them. Have you seen Calor delivering in BULK in your area? NOTE "appeared" to be implying they did not say it outright.

Hatel you have told me a few times in your private messages to me and I think on the forum that there are farmer Co operatives that allow you join for a very small fee. Can you give me an example of a Co operative that does this and more importantly an example of a small fee? noting that the definition of a small fee is based on your order size IE I have had a good year for free wood therefore 400 liters with a £50 fee = is an extra 8p a liter while a 2000 liter purchase = 1.6p extra a liter. Also do they take over the buy/maintain your tank or do you have to have your own tank?

SD-253 · 24 March 2011 at 11:41AM

DAVID.T wrote: »

INTERESTING, Flogas are now partners with.............

COUNTRYWIDE GO WITH THE FLO
Flogas, who are owned by DCC PLC, are a major nationwide supplier of LPG. .

Is DCC the Irish company that is being investigated over oil pricing?

Countywide quoted me the highest for LPG by a long long way. I think it was 60+p at my contract renewal while Energas quoted 36p

SD-253 · 24 March 2011 at 12:19PM

Despite the problems (now minor) with Economy 7 it is by far the cheapest for heating and hot water (if heated on E7)
My present charges with Scottish power are
Online Energy Reward from Scottish Power
Unit prices
Electricity 19.56p per kWh (day) first 900kWh per annum 225 KWh per quarter
6.72p per kWh (day) above 900 kWh per annum 225 kWh per quarter (this equates to a standing charge of £9.63)
3.16p per kWh (night)
All prices shown are inclusive of V.A.T. at 5%
Online discount for paperless billing 2.877p (incl. VAT) for electricity per day
Note the reward for all customers on this tariff is £63 no matter what the consumption therefore all my above prices should be reduced by 25%.

The comparison using E7 is 3.16p per kWh (ignoring the "Reward") electricity and 8p per Kwh for LPG (assuming 100% efficiency and LPG at 56p liter)

Other things to take into account if you use oil LPG or anything else you will have to pay for the electricity standing charge IE It is double counting by including the electricity standing charge. So that should be considered to be zero when using E7.

Now my above tariff is clearly a loss leader at least in my case. If I was to change tariffs to the best available for me today the E7 price would be virtually the same but the "day rate" is 10p with a similar standing charge.
A friend pays £50 a month DD £600 a year to overheat his (well insulated) 2 bed house I have never been to his house when he is wearing anything other than his underwear (he puts a house coat on before opening the door thank god). He does not look for the best offer available and is only using the standard tariff. IE he would probably reduce his cost considerably if he looked round.
Thinking of changing? E7 looks like the way to go. I am of course not taking into account all other cost both positive and negative.

SD-253 · 24 March 2011 at 12:27PM

Pukka wrote: »

Is it me or has Extra's 'March' price gone up twice this month? I'm sure it was 50 something at the beginning of the month, yesterday 51 something and today is 52.49p! How can a monthly price keep changing?

If you order when the price quoted is 50p that is what you get it at even if they deliver when the price has risen or gone down for that matter. At least thats what they told me when i asked about it that was over a year ago though.

GrandadRob · 24 March 2011 at 7:11PM

I have just received an email from Ipsos/Mori concerning the telephone survey that I took part in a few days ago. (see my previous post). I was told it was being carried out on behalf of the LPG industry....

Today, Ipsos/Mori told me that it was commisioned by CALOR :mad:

That, in my view is very underhanded. To hide behind the title of LPG Industry, and then later introduce the word Calor, borders on misrepresentation.

Can they stoop lower ????

GrandadRob · 24 March 2011 at 9:00PM

Just sent a return email to Ipsos/Mori asking for an explanation of the facts.
Survey on behalf of.........
Flogas gave them my details.......
Pollsters use details to aid a competitor.
Only admit on request that survey commissioned by Calor.

Watch this space.

Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

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