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Massive chip and pin theft

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  • Bigwigg wrote: »
    Well done Angela on getting your money back, came accross this thread whilst trying to search for some info on how I can try and get my money back. I had my credit card stolen out of my purse without my knowledge and they got £300 out of a cash machine. The bank are refusing to refund me cos they say they used my pin, I have absolutely no idea how they could have obtained it, it couldn't have been shoulder surfing etc. I can now send in an appeal letter, they have said I should try and send in some proof it wasn't me. Any ideas? They suggested evidence I was at work but it was in the evening.

    To make things even more annoying, this all happened 2 months ago, I have been calling them and checking and all the time I was reassured they were investigating the case, turns out they weren't and now there's no cctv because of the length of time.

    Does anyone know if the consumber credit acts applies to me as it was a credit card?

    BigWig, I'm going to post the letter I wrote to the bank - the consumer credit act should ABSOLUTELY covers you for this. The most the bank can charge you is £50. They're dragging their heels in the hope that you'll go away.

    Which bank is it? What sort or credit card? Oh, and you should not technically have to prove anything - the burden of proof is on them.

    Word of warning - if this type of thing ever happens again, or happens to any of your friends, you need to get on the case and get the evidence. Sadly the consumer has been left hanging in the wilderness. The police don't care, the banks don't care. Every man/woman for himself! Not the way it should be, but for now it's the way it is.
  • With regards to your letter as referenced above, I wish to appeal the decision by the bank xxx not to reimburse my fraud claim. I trust you will put this appeal into action immediately and contact me in writing, also immediately, to confirm that you are dealing with this appeal.

    I have a few questions in relation to your decision and to your letter that I would like answered in writing within seven working days.

    First of all, could you please give the reasons for your decision not to reimburse me? You have not given any reason in your letter and I am still unclear exactly as to why you are not reimbursing me.

    Secondly can you please explain why the Bank of Scotland/HBOS is not adhering to the UK Banking code, specifically to the following points:

    10.3 If we confirm a transaction is unauthorised, we will
    refund any interest charged, unless you have acted
    fraudulently or without reasonable care (see under
    sections 12.5 and 12.11).

    12.5 • Try to remember your PIN, password and other
    security information, and securely destroy the
    notice as soon as you receive it.
    • Never write down or record your PIN, password or
    other security information.

    Liability for losses
    12.11 If you act fraudulently, you will be responsible for all
    losses on your account. If you act without reasonable
    care, and this causes losses, you may be responsible
    for them. (This may apply, for example, if you do not
    follow section 12.5 or 12.9 or you do not keep to your
    account's terms and conditions.)

    I have never written down my PIN or given it to anybody else. It has always been stored securely in my memory.

    If you are claiming negligence on my part I would ask that you outline, in writing, exactly how you believe me to have been negligent and also explain, in writing, the steps that the bank's Retail Fraud team is doing to prove negligence on my part.

    The UK Banking Code States that it is up to the bank to show that I have been negligent:

    12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently
    or without reasonable care, your liability for your card
    being misused will be limited as follows.
    • If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it
    has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows
    your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50

    Thirdly, can you explain, in writing, why the bank is breaking the 1974 Consume Credit Act, which actually overrides the UK Banking code, given that my account was overdrawn (N.B. this wholly applies to credit cards) when the fraudulent transactions took place? I refer to these specific clauses:

    Section 83

    Quote:
    83. Liability for misuse of credit facilities.
    - (1) The debtor under a regulated consumer credit agreement shall not be liable to the creditor for any loss arising from use of the credit facility by another person not acting, or to be treated as acting, as the debtor's agent.
    (2) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, or to any loss in so far as it arises from misuse of an instrument to which section 4 of the M1 Cheques Act 1957 applies.

    Section 84

    Quote:
    Misuse of credit-tokens.
    84. - (1) Section 83 does not prevent the debtor under a credit-token agreement from being made liable to the extent of [F1 £50](or the credit limit if lower) for loss to the creditor arising from use of the credit-token by other persons during a period beginning when the credit-token ceases to be in the possession of any authorised person and ending when the credit-token is once more in the possession of an authorised person.
    (2) Section 83 does not prevent the debtor under a credit-token agreement from being made liable to any extent for loss to the creditor from use of the credit-token by a person who acquired possession of it with the debtor's consent.
    (3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to any use of the credit-token after the creditor has been given oral or written notice that it is lost or stolen, or is for any other reason liable to misuse.

    Fourthly, I want you to tell me, in writing, exactly what you are doing to carry out this fraud investigation. I want to know specifically, in writing, the following:

    A) Which exact transactions you are investigating, please outline the exact transactions you think I am claiming against.
    B) What investigations you have actually carried out into these transactions

    I would like to press upon you that I require an immediate confirmation that you are carrying out an appeal, in writing, and answers to the questions herein within seven working days.

    Yours sincerely...
    HOPE THIS HELPS!!
  • opinions4u
    opinions4u Posts: 19,411 Forumite
    Spot on Angela.
  • socrates
    socrates Posts: 2,889 Forumite
    Angela AKA Erin Brockovich :beer:
  • socrates wrote: »
    Angela AKA Erin Brockovich :beer:

    Do you know, I did look on her website for some inspiration when I was in the thick of it! She's an amazing woman. I was talking to one of the editors at The Times yesterday and heard about an outrageous case where the woman has lost over £10,000. My god, it's just terrible.
  • Didn't go well for Mr Job, interesting reading here:

    http://www.finextra.com/community/fullblog.aspx?id=2926
  • And if you're just about as geeky as me, full text:

    http://www.alikelman.com/jobhbos.pdf
  • schoolrunmum
    schoolrunmum Posts: 2,689 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker Debt-free and Proud!
    Just read your thread Ange-I discovered last night that £1300 taken out of my current a/c over 16 seperate transactions. All in Spain,but after we had returned home, so battle commences......any tips welcome!!
    Debt-free...and staying that way...
  • socrates
    socrates Posts: 2,889 Forumite
    Just read your thread Ange-I discovered last night that £1300 taken out of my current a/c over 16 seperate transactions. All in Spain,but after we had returned home, so battle commences......any tips welcome!!

    Sorry to jump in but I worked on this one with Angela from the beginning along with a couple of others.

    It sounds like your card has been compromised for sure. Probably skimming technique.

    Contact your bank immediately and get them to send you a new card - which when you receive change the pin number.

    Yours is a much clearer cut situation as you I would imagine still have the original card (debit card am I correct) in your possession.

    The bank will refund you fully as you can prove you was in UK when they happened. However they will have to make a full enquiry.

    However keep us in the loop for more advice
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