Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 13th Sep 18, 8:07 PM
    • 65Posts
    • 109Thanks
    chunkrock
    Please help! ***I WON***
    • #1
    • 13th Sep 18, 8:07 PM
    Please help! ***I WON*** 13th Sep 18 at 8:07 PM
    ***update and outcome on page 4***

    Hey gang

    Having a nightmare here...

    Randomly did a credit check on myself to see if it was worth applying for credit for something.

    Was mortified to see a CCJ against my name from a few months ago.

    Did some digging and it was for a parking charge from September 2017; all details about the charge and court etc were sent to my old address.
    I do not understand how this happened as all my details including DVLA were changed over to new address months before the parking charge (and I have proof).
    I am writing to the court to ask the judgement be set aside due to complete unfairness of not even knowing about the charge (the charge in question was a shopping precinct car park late in the evening when all shops were closed and the restaurant we were visiting adjacent to the carpark said we didn't have to pay at that time of night) or the court hearing or the judgement.

    Am I in the right? Don't want to pay the set aside fee of 255 to be told I STILL have to pay the 357 and have the black mark against me for 6 years.

    A different parking company did the same thing the week I moved (charge disputed and dismissed) so granted I hadn't changed my DVLA details for that one but they managed to trace me through the electoral register; these new guys who took me to court have made no effort but effort shouldn't have been necessary as my details were changed with the DVLA!

    What a nightmare; I've never so much as missed a phone bill payment
    Last edited by chunkrock; 10-11-2018 at 1:30 PM.
Page 5
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 18, 3:19 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You can still list the 255 and your other (loss of leave/salary, travel, parking) costs for attending that first hearing, in your costs schedule in preparation for the actual hearing.

    Don't lose sight of all your costs as this progresses (or doesn't, if CEL try to slink away and hope you don't pursue your 255). Costs are rarely refunded this early and your draft order asked that they be RESERVED (i.e. a decision to make later), and certainly paid by CEL if they now discontinue...so you've got your ducks in a row if the Judge took any notice of your Draft Order.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 22nd Nov 18, 5:18 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    chunkrock
    I am a bit confused.

    My judgement was set aside (yay) but rereading it it says "the claimant has until the 23rd at 4pm to file their claim and the defendant then has 14 days to file their defence"

    Should they reclaim again by tomorrow... do I have to go back to court? I thought that with a set-aside the entire thing was thrown out and I have to be reissued the initial fine?
    Do I still have to pay the 300 without a chance to try barter a deal with the company?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Nov 18, 5:21 PM
    • 21,914 Posts
    • 27,520 Thanks
    Redx
    the set aside just puts things back to how they were when the claimant issued a court claim, not reissue the initial pcn etc

    so it is resetting the clock and the claimant must start again with their court claim, if they wish to pursue it , including going back to court

    if you thought a set aside was going to wipe it all out, you were wrong
    Last edited by Redx; 22-11-2018 at 7:06 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Nov 18, 5:23 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You thought wrong, chunkrock, but you are nearly there. Think about it:

    - the scammers filed a claim
    - you didn't receive it, so you didn't get a chance to defend,
    - so you got the CCJ set aside to take it back to 'square one' (no CCJ but still a claim).
    - they now have xx days to reinstate that claim & serve their Particulars and you can then defend the claim, like you were meant to.
    - if they do comply with that date/Order, you then defend and if you win (yes, at the hearing about the claim) you then ask for ALL costs
    - if they don't comply with that Order, WRITE TO THE JUDGE WITH YOUR COSTS & ASK FOR THE ENTIRE CLAIM TO BE STRUCK OUT!!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Nov 18, 5:23 PM
    • 13,708 Posts
    • 14,997 Thanks
    KeithP
    "the claimant has until the 23rd at 4pm to file their claim
    Originally posted by chunkrock
    That tells you that the ball is in the Claimant's court.

    If they do (re)file their claim in time...
    the defendant then has 14 days to file their defence"
    Originally posted by chunkrock
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Nov 18, 5:28 PM
    • 13,708 Posts
    • 14,997 Thanks
    KeithP
    Do I still have to pay the 300 without a chance to try barter a deal with the company?
    Originally posted by chunkrock
    You can barter a deal any-time you like - right up to going through the courtroom doors.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Nov 18, 5:29 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    why the heck of hecks do you think:

    - that they will comply by tomorrow, and

    - that you will lose (given that a loss here is as rare as hen's teeth!)

    - that you have to pay them money?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Nov 18, 5:32 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,578 Thanks
    The Deep
    300 is far more than the Law allows for this sort of claim. The down market solicitors whom the PPCs engage know this, but, because they are solicitors, know that a lot of people will pay up.

    It is in fact double charging and non claimable debt collectors' add ons. Imo, this is fraud, or, at the very least, improper conduct.

    Were this to get to court and win, the judge would be unlikely to award the claimant more than 175 - 200.

    I urge you to report this grubby law firm to their regulatory body, the SRA.

    https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/handbook/code/content.page

    as I am sure they do not condone this conduct.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Nov 18, 5:34 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Why doesn't the OP prepare their costs schedule to post to the Judge, with a letter requiring the claim to be struck out and all his costs paid by the waster Claimant (including 255 fee, and travel and loss of leave/salary, and hours spent on this scam at 19 per hour)?

    Rather than assume (wrongly) that you are doomed! I would be crossing my fingers for nothing to arrive in the post tomorrow!

    Jeez even if you lost the claim in the end you'd pay a shedload LESS than 300!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 22-11-2018 at 5:36 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 22nd Nov 18, 5:41 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    chunkrock
    Why doesn't the OP prepare their costs schedule to post to the Judge, with a letter requiring the claim to be struck out and all his costs paid by the waster Claimant (including 255 fee, and travel and loss of leave/salary, and hours spent on this scam at 19 per hour)?

    Rather than assume (wrongly) that you are doomed! I would be crossing my fingers for nothing to arrive in the post tomorrow!

    Jeez even if you lost the claim in the end you'd pay a shedload LESS than 300!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Ok, I shall do just that! Fingers crossed the postman is sick haha
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Nov 18, 9:21 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ok so they got me, its me driving and you can clearly see that in the photo.
    This is not face recognition technology. Maybe you can see what you can see, but they'll see nothing but a random face - just a single face from 70 million in the country. Come on, think about this stuff! Check the definition of ANPR - that's all they use!

    Do you think that the PPC knows what anyone looks like? Or are you famous? They have no clue whatsoever - and in 99% of times (I'm sure it's 100% - but we don't see every case) CEL don't push forward with any re-submission of their claim.

    You're almost there, stay on message.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 22-11-2018 at 9:24 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 23rd Nov 18, 10:03 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    chunkrock
    Well the good news is the postman was not sick (he brought me my new spiderman bluray, yay!) but also he brought me nothing from CEL and the deadline has passed.

    How does this sound?

    Urgent Matter - to be referred to Procedural Judge.

    In the matter of

    Civil Enforcement Limited v Mr X
    Claim Number XXXXXXXX


    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I refer to the set aside hearing dated XXXX in which the judge ruled that the initial judgement dated XXXXX be set aside. As part of this ruling the judge ordered the claimant must serve the defendant with full particulars of the original claim by 4pm on the 23rd November 2018. The claimant has failed to produce this information.

    On this basis I would like to request that the claim be dismissed in its entirety and a costs order to be made against the Claimant

    The Defendant had significant costs to prepare for the attendance of the hearing and the costs claimed are as follows:

    Schedule of costs

    Research and preparation of defence as litigant in person @19 per hour,
    6 hours. Total 114.
    Court costs for set-aside hearing
    255

    One day off work to attend hearing on 09/11/2018 @13.57 per hour X 10.15 hours
    137.73

    Return train fare to and from the court on the date of the hearing
    4.80

    Total costs claimed 511.53
    Last edited by chunkrock; 23-11-2018 at 10:07 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Nov 18, 10:09 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just a heads up - there is a maximum of 95 for loss of earnings/loss of leave for half a day - no more.

    So you could express your total loss but acknowledge the fact that you are expecting no more than the max permitted. Might look better.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 23rd Nov 18, 10:15 PM
    • 21,914 Posts
    • 27,520 Thanks
    Redx
    This is not face recognition technology. Maybe you can see what you can see, but they'll see nothing but a random face - just a single face from 70 million in the country. Come on, think about this stuff! Check the definition of ANPR - that's all they use!

    Do you think that the PPC knows what anyone looks like? Or are you famous?



    They have no clue whatsoever - and in 99% of times (I'm sure it's 100% - but we don't see every case) CEL don't push forward with any re-submission of their claim.
    .
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    and even if you are famous, it could be mistaken identity , lol


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/24/blackpool-police-hunt-suspect-who-looks-like-ross-from-friends
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 23rd Nov 18, 10:16 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    chunkrock
    Haha brilliant; but alas I have very distinguishable facial features
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Nov 18, 10:21 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Haha brilliant; but alas I have very distinguishable facial features
    Originally posted by chunkrock
    Like two heads?

    Or simply stunningly good looking (like me )

    Forget it - it can't possibly be an issue.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Nov 18, 10:30 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I didn't spot 'ginger beard' on first skim read!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • chunkrock
    • By chunkrock 24th Nov 18, 9:02 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    chunkrock
    Slightly tweaked, would appreciate some guidance before I mail it off

    Also: I recieved notification from the court that my debt has been settled... it was not settled it was set aside... does this mean I have to chase the court as my CCJ will still be on my credit report?

    anyway, the letter:

    Urgent Matter - to be referred to Procedural Judge.

    In the matter of

    Civil Enforcement Limited v Mr X
    Claim Number XXXXXXXX


    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I refer to the set aside hearing dated XXXX in which the judge ruled that the initial judgement dated XXXXX be set aside. As part of this ruling the judge ordered the claimant must serve the defendant with full particulars of the original claim by 4pm on the 23rd November 2018. The claimant has failed to produce this information.

    On this basis I would like to request that the claim be dismissed in its entirety and a costs order to be made against the Claimant

    The Defendant had significant costs to prepare for the attendance of the hearing and the costs claimed are as follows:

    Schedule of costs

    Research and preparation of defence as litigant in person @19 per hour,
    6 hours. Total 114.
    Court costs for set-aside hearing
    255

    One day off work to attend hearing on 09/11/2018 @13.57 per hour X 5 hours
    67.85


    Return train fare to and from the court on the date of the hearing
    4.80

    Total costs claimed 441.65


    /end of letter


    it is Saturday and I still haven't had a letter from CEL so can I assume I am in the clear?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Nov 18, 9:18 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I don't purport to be the expert in the court side of things, but for what it's worth, it looks ok to me.

    However, I think in your costs schedule I'd be showing the set aside fee of 255 on the first line, not potentially lost in the other costs.

    255 is a real cost that has been expended, and that must be your prime target. Lumping it under a litigant-in-person line (which many Judges dismiss, as unreasonable behaviour has not been proven conclusively) might see the Judge get no further and dismiss the whole costs claim.

    Attach copies of pay slips to confirm your level of pay and justify your claim for loss of earnings/leave.

    HTH
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Nov 18, 10:40 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I agree, put this one last:

    Research and preparation of defence as litigant in person @19 per hour, 6 hours. Total 114.
    And to claim that, why not state that you have shown all your costs on the indemnity basis because it is your position that the claimant has crossed the line of wholly unreasonable and vexatious conduct from start to finish and - despite being a serial litigant - still continues to totally disregard the directions and authority of the court.

    list the unreasonable conduct on an attached sheet, like this - headed:

    'WHOLLY UNREASONABLE CONDUCT OF THE CLAIMANT':


    - Start with a BRIEF mention of the unclear signs, thus the driver could never have entered into any contract in the first place.

    - Then the fact the Claimant continued to use an old address which the D moved out of 8 months before the parking event, and from the lack of any response, knew or should have known the D was very likely not at that address.

    - The D believes the origin of the wrong address came from the lease firm that owned the car. Thus the Claimant did not even have the excuse that they were certain that the information was a true ''last known address'' or even obtained from a Government Source (DVLA) and there would be every reason to question the reliability of a hearsay address from a lease firm (it being wrong, either by error or omission) and yet the Claimant did nothing to clarify the matter.

    - this could have been easily established before court action, by simply sending a signed-for letter to establish if the D was there.

    - alternatively, the C could have used a Tracing agent, as the DVLA advised all parking firms to do.

    - as serial litigators who must have come across this issue many times, since they issue claims many months after parking events and unlike other traders, never have the address from any written contract so should be far more proactive and prudent as serial litigators entrusted with consumer data, see:

    http://www.civillitigationbrief.com/2014/05/18/service-of-the-claim-form-service-at-last-known-address-more-dangerbepoints-to-watch/

    SERVICE OF THE CLAIM FORM: SERVICE AT “LAST KNOWN” ADDRESS: MORE DANGEROUS POINTS TO WATCH
    If the claimant has any suspicion at all that the defendant does not remain at the “last known address” it would be prudent to check this prior to issue.

    A prudent claimant should assume that lapse of time, or a failure to respond to correspondence, gives rise to a risk that the defendant has moved.

    IF YOU CANNOT FIND THE DEFENDANT

    Then you can serve at the last known address. However a claimant remains vulnerable if they cannot show that they have taken “reasonable steps” to find the defendant or an alternative address for service.
    - The White Book Part 6 'Service of Documents' discusses the 'duty' to take reasonable steps and that a Claimant ''MUST consider'' whether there is an alternative place to serve a claim, if there is any suspicion that the Defendant cannot be properly served at the address the Claimant holds.

    - the C did none of the above. Failure to take 'reasonable' steps can only be concluded by the ordinary man in the street, and the Court, as proof of 'unreasonableness'. The Court is aware from the discussions at the uncontested set aside hearing, that the Claimant took no “reasonable steps” whatsoever, to find the Defendant or an alternative address for service.

    - and in addition, the C knew they could not hold the Hirer/lessee liable anyway, due to their own choice never to use the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) provisions in Schedule 4 (which the D's defence intended to establish, and would have been easy to prove since this Claimant does not issue any of the required documents with their Notice to Hirer once they get a name/address).

    - Para 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of the POFA is the applicable section of the statute that the Claimant did not bother to comply with. Thus a hirer/lessee could not have been held liable in the first place.

    - this was to say the least, a poorly-pleaded claim from the outset, compounded by the Claimant's total and abject disregard for the rights & interests of consumers and of the authority of the Court.

    - the Claimant proceeded to obtain a CCJ anyway, displaying the exact conduct that caused the Government to announce this:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-protect-consumers-from-debt-claims

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/12/government-announce-ccj-review-due-to.html

    - all parking firms that were BPA members were informed of that Government statement & enquiry, and that was in 2016. This Claimant's PCN was from late 2017, so their conduct paid no regard whatsoever to the will of Parliament, or the will of the DVLA who encouraged parking firms to use Tracing agents before suing people who had not replied to a PCN.

    - the C then did not bother to turn up to the set aside hearing the D was forced to pay 255 for, and lose a day's pay, to remove the CCJ and enable them to defend.

    - the C then added insult to injury, ignoring the Court and the rights & interests of the Defendant, by not bothering to comply with the set aside Order, giving the D no chance to defend it and show the court why they were not liable for the PCN and no chance to reclaim their costs face to face, in front of a Judge.

    - in preparation, this D (being a litigant in person untrained in such matters) has spent many hours researching the POFA, the set aside procedure, and how to construct a defence in order to deal with this unwarranted demand they knew nothing about. Having spent those hours of research, the D was prepared to defend the meritless claim, but it seems will now not be afforded that opportunity and the Claimant seems content to walk away.

    - The C is believed likely to try to discontinue the claim now, as has been recorded in hundreds of cases of set aside CCJs emanating from this same serial offender Claimant.

    - this would leave the D to foot the bill for all the costs shown in the costs schedule and the Claimant would, yet again, escape scot-free to do the same to other Defendants. This is clearly wholly unreasonable and vexatious conduct for which no relief from sanctions should be granted.

    - This is a gross abuse of process, and the Defendant applies for all his costs, and asks that sanctions should be imposed. The Defendant relies upon para 41 of Mitchell v. News Group Newspapers Ltd [2013] EWCA Civ 1537, [2014] 1 WLR 795 which is re-iterated in para 24 of Denton v T H White Ltd [2014] EWCA Civ 906, and asks for costs on the indemnity basis.

    - Costs Schedule attached which includes the (believed to be reserved) costs from the set aside application.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 24-11-2018 at 10:59 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

232Posts Today

2,478Users online

Martin's Twitter