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  • FIRST POST
    • angela2011
    • By angela2011 26th Oct 17, 5:37 PM
    • 454Posts
    • 132Thanks
    angela2011
    bitcoin trading.
    • #1
    • 26th Oct 17, 5:37 PM
    bitcoin trading. 26th Oct 17 at 5:37 PM
    Thinking of investing some cash in to trade in bitcoins. Been looking at cryptoallday and was wondering if anyone had used them before.

    Any advice would be great...

    TIA...
Page 10
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 11th Apr 18, 4:27 PM
    • 4,866 Posts
    • 3,058 Thanks
    Aegis
    It's current value is probably about right for now but I fully expect it to rise significantly again within the next 2 years. It will have future crashes back down as well but I expect every crash to stop higher than the last.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    If the value is right for now, why would it not be wrong in two years if the price goes up? The asset doesn't produce any underlying income and has no real application other than as a token of exchange, and if the mining continues there will be a larger supply in two years rather than a smaller one. As such, if the value was correct now, you'd expect the price in two years to be lower due to the expanded supply, not higher.

    You go on to explain your thoughts on "why", but they don't make sense from an investment perspective.

    It's in it's nature to grow in value due to it's scarcity
    This should only matter if there's a practical use for the asset in question and should only actually take place with reference to a currency which is inflating. In other words, if inflation runs at 3%, you would expect a scarce but tradable asset to increase each year broadly by inflation where the supply stays broadly constant (i.e. where utilisation and introduction of new supply are similar).

    There are plenty of assets out there which are scarce, but they're not expected to increase in value enormously. Why is bitcoin the exception?

    and what I believe will be a transformation of finance over the coming years.
    Why do you expect bitcoin to benefit from this transformation? Is it really at all likely that entire economies will switch from currencies they control to a decentralised system with ever-increasing costs to run the network, coupled with an inability to process anywhere near the number of transactions a second needed to replace even a small trading currency, let alone a significant number of them? Is it not more likely that - if blockchain genuinely is the future of finance - central banks will instead create their own?

    Bitcoin is virtually unstoppable at this point nomatter what the value is. It's the technology of the future.
    Blockchain is the technology. Bitcoin is a prototype demonstration of that technology. You can have blockchain without bitcoin, hence the number of cryptocurrencies now in circulation.

    The problem with prototypes is that they are supplanted by better implementations of the technology.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 4:34 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    Most of the limited audience for crypto currencies are probably now immune to the hype:


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-10/bitcoin-is-a-disease-in-barclays-model-that-says-prices-peaked


    The recent bubble won't happen again.
    Originally posted by Bravepants

    Well considering it has happened mutiple times since 2009 I think it would be foolish to suggest that another bubble will never happen. The recent bubble was just one of many over the years - I've been following bitcoin since 2014 and it was no more of a bubble than the one I saw back then.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 7:01 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    If the value is right for now, why would it not be wrong in two years if the price goes up? The asset doesn't produce any underlying income and has no real application other than as a token of exchange, and if the mining continues there will be a larger supply in two years rather than a smaller one. As such, if the value was correct now, you'd expect the price in two years to be lower due to the expanded supply, not higher.

    The value will increase as the technology develops and more and more users want to get involved in it. This is potentially an entirely new asset class in it's early development. Every day there is more and more adoption occurring around the world new businesses/apps, etc. being created - it is very much a massively growing area.

    You go on to explain your thoughts on "why", but they don't make sense from an investment perspective.

    Please see above

    This should only matter if there's a practical use for the asset in question and should only actually take place with reference to a currency which is inflating. In other words, if inflation runs at 3%, you would expect a scarce but tradable asset to increase each year broadly by inflation where the supply stays broadly constant (i.e. where utilisation and introduction of new supply are similar).

    Currently the use is that of a means of storing value outside of the banking system, free from regulation (though exchanges will get regulated) and due to a finite supply with a system that makes bitcoin more and more rare as time goes on. That in itself to many people has value. There will only ever be 21 million (full) bitcoin ever in existence and they reckon that several millions of these have been lost forever. Supply is finite.

    There are plenty of assets out there which are scarce, but they're not expected to increase in value enormously. Why is bitcoin the exception?

    Please see above - there can only ever be 21 million in existence. Name me another asset where the entire supply in it's history is set at a particular number?

    Why do you expect bitcoin to benefit from this transformation? Is it really at all likely that entire economies will switch from currencies they control to a decentralised system with ever-increasing costs to run the network, coupled with an inability to process anywhere near the number of transactions a second needed to replace even a small trading currency, let alone a significant number of them? Is it not more likely that - if blockchain genuinely is the future of finance - central banks will instead create their own?

    Mainly because it has already established itself within the space and has also got all the very best developers working on it. I believe that in the future banks will go crypto and it will become the norm to use it - if bitcoin can capture even 2% of that then it's value will be vastly greater than it is now.

    Blockchain is the technology. Bitcoin is a prototype demonstration of that technology. You can have blockchain without bitcoin, hence the number of cryptocurrencies now in circulation.

    The problem with prototypes is that they are supplanted by better implementations of the technology.
    Originally posted by Aegis
    Bitcoin has the best developers in the space working on it and it is an evolving technology - I expect most alt coins to have died with any with good features basically assimilated into Bitcoin - there are already developments planned that will increase privacy, deal with any scaling issues and make things quicker and more efficient - all with Bitcoin.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • John-K
    • By John-K 11th Apr 18, 7:37 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 732 Thanks
    John-K
    It's current value is probably about right for now but I fully expect it to rise significantly again within the next 2 years. It will have future crashes back down as well but I expect every crash to stop higher than the last. It's in it's nature to grow in value due to it's scarcity and what I believe will be a transformation of finance over the coming years. Bitcoin is virtually unstoppable at this point nomatter what the value is. It's the technology of the future.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    But it has stopped. Itís been wandering down for months.

    What the zealots pumping it never seem able to answer is why this particular incarnation should be worth any more than I is today. Even if it were used for every transaction on Earth, thereís no reason for it to appreciate.

    The only possible reason to think that it will go up is that you think someone else will want to pay more for one in future than they do now.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 7:45 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    But it has stopped. Itís been wandering down for months.

    What the zealots pumping it never seem able to answer is why this particular incarnation should be worth any more than I is today. Even if it were used for every transaction on Earth, thereís no reason for it to appreciate.

    The only possible reason to think that it will go up is that you think someone else will want to pay more for one in future than they do now.
    Originally posted by John-K
    You are thinking short term - I am thinking long term. Please see my post above as to why I believe the value will grow substantially over the coming years. You may disagree and that's fine but like I said in my previous post more and more people will want to get into it and yes that does mean people will be prepared to pay more for it.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • John-K
    • By John-K 11th Apr 18, 8:09 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 732 Thanks
    John-K
    You are thinking short term - I am thinking long term. Please see my post above as to why I believe the value will grow substantially over the coming years.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    Come on, I quoted it in the very post to which you responded!

    Why do you think that the current inefficient, expensive to use, electricity wasting old crypto coin will be the choice of a new generation? Also, why will people not simply peg whatever new currency they want to the existing bitcoin value? You can dump a trillion bitcoin equivalents into the market tomorrow if you want, the idea that it is limited is fantasy. Thatís without even noting that you can just create as many genuine new equivalents as you want on the same technology.

    This is like saying that youíll Email only twenty copies of your ebook out to the world, and claiming that apscarcity will make it trade for millions. As anyone can create a facsimile of it, the scarcity argument just does not work.

    Or, to use another example, itís like Henry Ford producing only a few thousand Model T, and then claiming that they would be worth millions as everyone would want one and there were so few.

    As a true believer, have you backed your view?
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 11th Apr 18, 8:17 PM
    • 4,866 Posts
    • 3,058 Thanks
    Aegis
    If the value is right for now, why would it not be wrong in two years if the price goes up? The asset doesn't produce any underlying income and has no real application other than as a token of exchange, and if the mining continues there will be a larger supply in two years rather than a smaller one. As such, if the value was correct now, you'd expect the price in two years to be lower due to the expanded supply, not higher.
    Originally posted by Aegis
    The value will increase as the technology develops and more and more users want to get involved in it. This is potentially an entirely new asset class in it's early development. Every day there is more and more adoption occurring around the world new businesses/apps, etc. being created - it is very much a massively growing area.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    How many more new users do you think there will be? Most people have heard of bitcoin by now, and have either decided to invest or to avoid it. Instead of converting new people from large numbers of people who know nothing about bitcoin, there's now the challenge of getting people interested who have decided for various reasons not to buy into the fad.

    More to the point, this isn't a rational reason for the asset value to change. Either an asset is correctly priced or it isn't - the number of people investing doesn't affect that fundamental calculation. What you're instead describing is "greater fool theory", namely the idea that something will continuously go up in value because there will always be someone who wants it at a greater price. This is the very definition of bubble formation, and if this is the reason why you are buying this asset, then you are buying in to the mania rather than to an asset which is increasing in value for rational reasons.

    You go on to explain your thoughts on "why", but they don't make sense from an investment perspective.
    Please see above
    As mentioned, I don't think you've addressed this point any more than those who bought into limited edition Beanie Babies did during that mania.

    This should only matter if there's a practical use for the asset in question and should only actually take place with reference to a currency which is inflating. In other words, if inflation runs at 3%, you would expect a scarce but tradable asset to increase each year broadly by inflation where the supply stays broadly constant (i.e. where utilisation and introduction of new supply are similar).
    Currently the use is that of a means of storing value outside of the banking system, free from regulation (though exchanges will get regulated) and due to a finite supply with a system that makes bitcoin more and more rare as time goes on. That in itself to many people has value. There will only ever be 21 million (full) bitcoin ever in existence and they reckon that several millions of these have been lost forever. Supply is finite.
    You've completely missed the point. If the supply was currently fixed, then you would expect the price to be relatively stable if the asset is rationally bought and sold according to known information. That pricing point would - if the asset remains useful - rise with inflation, but shouldn't be expected to increase in real price over and over again.

    You've also got a problem in the claim that this is a store of value. It's not. The value fluctuates so much that you can't guarantee you'll have even 50% of your value remaining in a given week.

    There are plenty of assets out there which are scarce, but they're not expected to increase in value enormously. Why is bitcoin the exception?
    Please see above - there can only ever be 21 million in existence. Name me another asset where the entire supply in it's history is set at a particular number?
    Limited edition Beanie Babies. Gold doubloons. For that matter, any precious metal.

    If I create a random file on my computer and encrypt it strongly enough, it will be entirely unique. Does that give it value?

    Why do you expect bitcoin to benefit from this transformation? Is it really at all likely that entire economies will switch from currencies they control to a decentralised system with ever-increasing costs to run the network, coupled with an inability to process anywhere near the number of transactions a second needed to replace even a small trading currency, let alone a significant number of them? Is it not more likely that - if blockchain genuinely is the future of finance - central banks will instead create their own?
    Mainly because it has already established itself within the space and has also got all the very best developers working on it.
    Much like Myspace then?

    I believe that in the future banks will go crypto and it will become the norm to use it - if bitcoin can capture even 2% of that then it's value will be vastly greater than it is now.
    Cryptocurrencies are a commodity, not a real currency, so why would banks choose to adopt them as the norm? To give them legitimacy, you'd have to have stable currencies within each jurisdiction, which means they will need to be centrally managed. As bitcoin in particular is designed to be decentralised, it doesn't fit that requirement. Even if bitcoin becomes more mainstream than it presently is, the fact that it can't be used to settle tax debts to countries in a fixed amount means that its future as an actual currency is impossible. No one government can take ownership of bitcoin without it failing as a decentralised currency, but it can't become a real currency until a government starts pricing everything in bitcoin, which they won't do unless they can control the currency. It's a vicious circle that can't be broken.

    Not to mention the fact that bitcoin doesn't really have any advantages over existing currencies. Want to talk about established currencies? Modern fiat currencies have decades or centuries on bitcoin, so without a really compelling need, there is no chance whatsoever that they will be replaced. I just don't see that there's a need for bitcoin - GBP is perfectly suited to being used as a currency.


    Blockchain is the technology. Bitcoin is a prototype demonstration of that technology. You can have blockchain without bitcoin, hence the number of cryptocurrencies now in circulation.

    The problem with prototypes is that they are supplanted by better implementations of the technology.
    Bitcoin has the best developers in the space working on it and it is an evolving technology - I expect most alt coins to have died with any with good features basically assimilated into Bitcoin - there are already developments planned that will increase privacy, deal with any scaling issues and make things quicker and more efficient - all with Bitcoin.
    If blockchain survives as part of a modern currency, it will almost certainly be one developed by a country, not bitcoin.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 8:23 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    Come on, I quoted it in the very post to which you responded!

    Why do you think that the current inefficient, expensive to use, electricity wasting old crypto coin will be the choice of a new generation? Also, why will people not simply peg whatever new currency they want to the existing bitcoin value? You can dump a trillion bitcoin equivalents into the market tomorrow if you want, the idea that it is limited is fantasy. That!!!8217;s without even noting that you can just create as many genuine new equivalents as you want on the same technology.

    I believe those problems will be overcome as the technology develops - also if you dump 1 billion bitcoin clones into the system that will not matter as they still will not be Bitcoin and will not have the people working on it like Bitcoin does - a bitcoin clone today will be outdated and behind the curve within a few months anyway as Bitcoin continues to evolve. There are hundreds of alt coins out there and no doubt there will be hundreds more - it's an exciting space and it's good to see innovation - innovation that Bitcoin will absorb

    This is like saying that you!!!8217;ll Email only twenty copies of your ebook out to the world, and claiming that apscarcity will make it trade for millions. As anyone can create a facsimile of it, the scarcity argument just does not work.

    Or, to use another example, it!!!8217;s like Henry Ford producing only a few thousand Model T, and then claiming that they would be worth millions as everyone would want one and there were so few.
    A Bitcoin can be split into millions of pieces - 21 million bitcoin = billions of satoshi - that is the unit measure people need to think about rather than a full bitcoin - relatively few people will ever own a full bitcoin. Neither of your examples show any understanding of that. People will want to use it but they will be using satoshi

    As a true believer, have you backed your view?
    Originally posted by John-K
    I have put a little bit of cash into it yeah - only enough that if i lost it all tomorrow it wouldn't bother me.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 11th Apr 18, 8:31 PM
    • 1,600 Posts
    • 1,345 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    I have put a little bit of cash into it yeah - only enough that if i lost it all tomorrow it wouldn't bother me.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    Why so little if you are so convinced that Bitcoin is the future?
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 8:57 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    Why so little if you are so convinced that Bitcoin is the future?
    Originally posted by ValiantSon
    Because I'm not stupid enough to pump all my savings into what is still a very new tech - I do believe in it but not enough to bankrupt myself. I have other priorities like mortgages, etc. Anyway, I am content with what I have and I have done some trading since then and more than doubled the worth of what I had at the start without paying any money in.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 11th Apr 18, 9:48 PM
    • 1,600 Posts
    • 1,345 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    Because I'm not stupid enough to pump all my savings into what is still a very new tech - I do believe in it but not enough to bankrupt myself. I have other priorities like mortgages, etc. Anyway, I am content with what I have and I have done some trading since then and more than doubled the worth of what I had at the start without paying any money in.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    It sounds like you are not quite so convinced when it comes to investing your own money. That's absolutely fine, and you shouldn't put much money into something that you are uncertain about, but it is rather at odds with how you have talked about it.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 9:52 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    It sounds like you are not quite so convinced when it comes to investing your own money. That's absolutely fine, and you shouldn't put much money into something that you are uncertain about, but it is rather at odds with how you have talked about it.
    Originally posted by ValiantSon
    Oh I am convinced and I do believe in it but I would be stupid to stake all my savings on it. I don't have a huge amount of disposable income - if I had more money floating about then sure I'd put more in but like I said I have mortgages to pay and a family to provide for and that comes first. In any case if things go the way I believe they could then what I have could be enough for me to at least semi-retire all being well.
    Last edited by hildosaver; 11-04-2018 at 10:00 PM.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 11th Apr 18, 10:06 PM
    • 1,600 Posts
    • 1,345 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    Oh I am convinced and I do believe in it but I would be stupid to stake all my savings on it. I don't have a huge amount of disposable income - if I had more money floating about then sure I'd put more in but like I said I have mortgages to pay and a family to provide for and that comes first. In any case if things go the way I believe they could then what I have could be enough for me to at least semi-retire all being well.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    Your argument, and your practice in reality, are still inconsistent, but that's a circle for you to square.

    Good luck with the plans for semi-retirement based on a small Bitcoin investment. I think it highly unlikely to work out for you, but don't wish you ill with it.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 11th Apr 18, 10:15 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 732 Thanks
    John-K
    I have put a little bit of cash into it yeah - only enough that if i lost it all tomorrow it wouldn't bother me.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    So your argument is that bitcoin is special because itís bitcoin, and other equivalent cryptocurrencies are not?

    Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? You are in effect saying that there is no reason for it to be special, you just like it. As to the best people working on it, thatís laughable. It is used by a few nerds and criminals, most of the best developers want to work on something with some real meaning, or that will make them rich. Who do you think is paying developers to work on bitcoin, and what do you imagine that they are doing?

    I am afraid at this point your arguments sound like special pleading. Where is your evidence that the best people are working on it? I suspect that youíve just invented this ďfactĒ.

    Edited to add, you are already tying yourself in knots and contradicting yourself. You claimed earlier that the scarcity added to the value, but now claim that the ability to infinitely divide so remove scarcity is adding to the value. I think that you think that it must go up,only because you think that it must go up. Scarcity does not imply value, as you surely know. There is only a small amount of my faces in circulation, but no-one is paying me for them. Using your ďargumentsĒthey should be a goldmine.
    Last edited by John-K; 11-04-2018 at 10:19 PM.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 11th Apr 18, 10:22 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 732 Thanks
    John-K
    I laugh when I see people mocking bitcoin and ridiculing those who invested in it. This 'crash' has only brought it back to the value it was about 6 months ago. If you had bought before then you would still be quids in.
    Originally posted by hildosaver
    And if youíd bought in December youíd be screwed.

    Since you are so wise, how many did you buy back at $1?

    One of my IT guys has 4,000 bitcoins. That makes him worth more than most of the senior traders on the floor. Heís been trying to get his cash out for months, and canít.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 11th Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 732 Thanks
    John-K
    Your argument, and your practice in reality, are still inconsistent, but that's a circle for you to square.

    Good luck with the plans for semi-retirement based on a small Bitcoin investment. I think it highly unlikely to work out for you, but don't wish you ill with it.
    Originally posted by ValiantSon
    Itís a bit bizarre, is it not? He flips between laughing at the idiots who have not piled in, and then says he has only a little bit in himself, as he is not an idiot.

    If anyone was as convinced as this poster claims to be, they would have remortgaged their house and invested the lot.

    It is a bit sad, really, the hubris and superior attitude allied to likely onkynhaving a few tens of thousands invested.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 10:28 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    And if youíd bought in December youíd be screwed.

    Since you are so wise, how many did you buy back at $1?

    One of my IT guys has 4,000 bitcoins. That makes him worth more than most of the senior traders on the floor. Heís been trying to get his cash out for months, and canít.
    Originally posted by John-K
    If he truly has that amount - which is highly doubtful - it's worth over £10 million. In what way can he not sell some of it? Doesn't add up at all.

    I got into it in 2014, hadn't heard of it in 2009/10 when it worth £1 or so.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 11th Apr 18, 10:30 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    It!!!8217;s a bit bizarre, is it not? He flips between laughing at the idiots who have not piled in, and then says he has only a little bit in himself, as he is not an idiot.

    If anyone was as convinced as this poster claims to be, they would have remortgaged their house and invested the lot.

    It is a bit sad, really, the hubris and superior attitude allied to likely onkynhaving a few tens of thousands invested.
    Originally posted by John-K
    I didn't say that at all, quite the opposite I was pointing out that those ridiculing those who got into bitcoin shouldn't mock. That's you by the way. I've never advocated for anybody to spend money on it. If people do that's up to them. You are suggesting that if I don't remortgage my home to buy more I'm don't really believe in it? Are you for real? For the record I have nowhere near 'tens of thousands' invested. Nowhere near.
    Last edited by hildosaver; 11-04-2018 at 10:35 PM.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
    • ivormonee
    • By ivormonee 12th Apr 18, 7:39 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    ivormonee
    One of my IT guys has 4,000 bitcoins. That makes him worth more than most of the senior traders on the floor. Heís been trying to get his cash out for months, and canít.
    Originally posted by John-K
    Not quite sure why someone appears unable to relinquish some or all of their holding of bitcoin. I would have thought you just log into an exchange and start selling as and when it suits you.

    By the way, on a separate note, there was a spike in bitcoin's price this afternoon where, within one hour, the price went from $6,800 to $8,000 - a jump of 18%. I have found no information anywhere as to what may have caused this. News channels simply report "reasons unknown"!

    More widely, I do not believe that anyone can know with enough, or indeed any, certainty where bitcoin is heading (and when). There may be no fundamentals backing it up (some would argue there are plenty) but either way, I think it's just as likely to head towards $25k as it is to go to $1k. Neither may be a "fair" valuation, but with speculatively-driven, not-that-widely-understood phenomena, which bitcoin clearly is, both extremes of the spectrum are possible.
    • hildosaver
    • By hildosaver 12th Apr 18, 8:47 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    hildosaver
    Not quite sure why someone appears unable to relinquish some or all of their holding of bitcoin. I would have thought you just log into an exchange and start selling as and when it suits you.

    By the way, on a separate note, there was a spike in bitcoin's price this afternoon where, within one hour, the price went from $6,800 to $8,000 - a jump of 18%. I have found no information anywhere as to what may have caused this. News channels simply report "reasons unknown"!

    More widely, I do not believe that anyone can know with enough, or indeed any, certainty where bitcoin is heading (and when). There may be no fundamentals backing it up (some would argue there are plenty) but either way, I think it's just as likely to head towards $25k as it is to go to $1k. Neither may be a "fair" valuation, but with speculatively-driven, not-that-widely-understood phenomena, which bitcoin clearly is, both extremes of the spectrum are possible.
    Originally posted by ivormonee
    That is correct which makes the entire story quite dubious.
    Last edited by hildosaver; 12-04-2018 at 8:49 PM.
    Mortgage balance September 2012: £121,086 (First ever OP)
    Mortgage balance March 2018: £77,650
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