Electric cars

almillar · 16 April 2018 at 12:32PM

If you are right that PSA are massive supporters of EV's,

Again, I've had to correct you on what you're reading. I never said this. You've taken against Peugeot based on one article, and neither AdrianC nor myself have been able to convince you with any facts about the company that they're not 'not supporters'. I've done all I can and you're just putting words in my mouth.

But if it's OK with you, I'll continue to agree that they have not supported EV's enough (like most of the old school), and now are complaining, when it's their own fault.

Once again, I hadn't even mentioned the complaining when I called out the 'not supporting' comment.

You mistakenly jumped in confusing re-badged cars with EV support

Yes, here's what we were actually talking about. Yes. It is MY opinion that selling a re-badged Mitsubishi since 2010 DOES count as EV support. Relative to the rest of the car industry. YOUR opinion is that it does not. NEITHER of our opinions is fact, so what we do is agree to disagree.

You could just agree to disagree on PSA and move on .... I've tried repeatedly with other news and articles

I'm trying, but you keep putting words in my mouth.

PS - Take a joke about the fanbois thing, after all I've found this long argument nothing but a complete joke fabricated around a deliberate attempt to make 'haven't supported the EV idea' into something it isn't. If you can't see how ludicrous the discussion is, then you've had a sense of humour failure.

I questioned one thing (that YOU said, not the article), and provided a decent argument, I thought. You could have agreed to disagree long before your umpteen links - I posted none.

Martyn1981 · 16 April 2018 at 4:26PM

almillar wrote: »

Again, I've had to correct you on what you're reading. I never said this. You've taken against Peugeot based on one article, and neither AdrianC nor myself have been able to convince you with any facts about the company that they're not 'not supporters'. I've done all I can and you're just putting words in my mouth.

You have your opinion on PSA, oddly based on Mitsubishi's, I have my opinion. When I read the article it matched my opinion, and so do the vast majority of subsequent comments on the article.

I won't change your opinion, and never had any intention of doing so. However, your opening remark was to claim that my opinion, was wrong, and that that was a fact - a fact supported by naming the same Mitsu (not PSA) 3 times:-

almillar wrote: »

Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.

so I've defended my opinion, whilst you argue against it.

I'm not in the slightest bit bothered that you have a different opinion to me, and you should have the same approach regarding my opinion (and the vast majority of commentators on the article).

However, as I mentioned before, if it really does bother you so much, then stop flogging a dead horse on here, join Disqus, and tell everyone on Cleantechnica, as I think this minor side issue built on a faux argument interpretation of my 'haven't supported EV's' is nothing more than a waste of time and space.

Edit - Comments for that article have now closed, so it seems that 'they' have moved on. Perhaps we should take the hint and do the same. M.

Martyn1981 · 16 April 2018 at 4:38PM

I don't have an issue with your opinion differing from mine, only your repeated claims of fact, that are wholly untrue:-

almillar wrote: »

I questioned one thing (that YOU said, not the article),

From the article:

I’ll note here that these plans are nothing new, and that auto manufacturers have had a long time now to make changes so as to remain in compliance. They haven’t done so for two main reasons:

A nice bit of scaremongering and deflection of blame, I suppose. What Tavares doesn’t note there is that PSA Group and most other European auto manufacturers have been doing nothing serious to date when it comes to plug-in electric vehicles. The strategy has seemingly been to just make a “big announcement” every few months or years (depending on the automaker) and then stall as much as possible afterwards. It’s no wonder that China-based firms seem to be on the expansion as of late — most firms in Europe and the USA have been caught sleeping.

If the company is truly on track to meet the fleet-level carbon dioxide goals, though, then why would Tavares make so many of the recent comments that he has made? If the company’s plans regarding plug-in electric vehicles are serious, then why all the attempts to stall the fines?

I've already posted many of the comments, but this one deserves a re-airing:

The national champion carmaker in France isn't PSA but Renault, which is leading the EV charge. PSA are feeling a cold draft and beginning to panic.

I strongly suspect your first reply/statement was made in haste, was without reading the article, and was before you realised all 3 cars were the same Mitsu. From that point on all of your replies appear to be dead horse flogging, as you couldn't see how to dig yourself out of a hole (psst, you can't, just stop digging) and so it has gone on and on and on.

We have different opinions on this matter, our opinions are of little to no importance, so get over it.

AdrianC · 16 April 2018 at 6:03PM

Martyn1981 wrote: »

You have your opinion on PSA, oddly based on Mitsubishi's, I have my opinion.

How about we forget all about Mitusbishis, re-badged or otherwise?

If you did not know who it was, what would you say if somebody new to this thread mentioned a mainstream manufacturer who has had an electric van on the market since 2013, with an electric people carrier version since last year?

Would you say they had "done nothing serious to date"?

Would you still say that if you then found out they'd had the predecessor on the market as an electric van, in several countries, between 1998 and 2005 - replacing an electric version of the predecessor to that, launched in 1991? And who had had electric versions of their mainstream car range through the 80s and 90s, including urban car-sharing programs?

Those are cars which have nothing to do with any other manufacturer, totally in-house.

That manufacturer's third current electric model (since 2016) is, however, a partnership - with a small manufacturer who have also been selling a 22-seat electric bus since 2011, the people behind the single biggest urban electric-car-sharing scheme in the world, with damn near 10% of the world's total car-share-scheme subscribers and using a 250km-range four-seater since 2011 - the direct successor to those urban programs.

"Nothing serious"...?

Martyn1981 · 17 April 2018 at 12:05AM

AdrianC wrote: »

How about we forget all about Mitusbishis, re-badged or otherwise?

If you did not know who it was, what would you say if somebody new to this thread mentioned a mainstream manufacturer who has had an electric van on the market since 2013, with an electric people carrier version since last year?

Would you say they had "done nothing serious to date"?

Would you still say that if you then found out they'd had the predecessor on the market as an electric van, in several countries, between 1998 and 2005 - replacing an electric version of the predecessor to that, launched in 1991? And who had had electric versions of their mainstream car range through the 80s and 90s, including urban car-sharing programs?

Those are cars which have nothing to do with any other manufacturer, totally in-house.

That manufacturer's third current electric model (since 2016) is, however, a partnership - with a small manufacturer who have also been selling a 22-seat electric bus since 2011, the people behind the single biggest urban electric-car-sharing scheme in the world, with damn near 10% of the world's total car-share-scheme subscribers and using a 250km-range four-seater since 2011 - the direct successor to those urban programs.

"Nothing serious"...?

Ah, you're back, thought I'd lost you for a moment there, so just to remind you, still waiting for your answers:

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?

Martyn1981 · 17 April 2018 at 12:07AM

Tesla batts continue to look good.

Tesla Batteries Have 90% Capacity After 160,000 Miles, May Last For 500,000 miles

You still hear this from fossil fuel advocates trying to scare people out of buying electric cars, but a survey of 350 Tesla drivers by a European contingent of Tesla owners reveals that such concerns are not warranted. Actual Tesla owners report about a 5% drop in battery capacity by the 50,000 mile mark but after than, the rate of degradation drops considerably. On average, cars with 160,000 miles on them still have 90% of their battery capacity remaining. Projecting forward from the real world data available, a Tesla battery should still have 80% battery capacity after 500,000 miles of driving, the group claims. The vast majority of internal combustion engines would have stopped functioning long before then.

Assuming second hand car buyers are happy with a little less range, this suggests that the batts will 'never' need replacing during the lifetime of the cars.

AdrianC · 17 April 2018 at 8:08AM

...and then you wonder why I call you a fanboi.

Your interest in the sustainable future of transport stretches no further than fawning at the feet of your favourite sleb, and gawd help any facts or reality that get in the way of that deification.

AdrianC · 17 April 2018 at 11:34AM

Tesla Model 3 production problems "down to automation", and human labour is the answer.

No, really.

Elon_Musk wrote:

Yes, excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/16/elon-musk-humans-robots-slow-down-tesla-model-3-production

That Grauniad article links to this CBS article, with an interesting 7min interview with Elon, walking down the line and in the factory control room.https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-problems-interview-today-2018-04-13/

So production is getting onto track - finally. Good. But it's taken two and a bit weeks of the CEO taking direct personal control of the production facility, and sleeping in a meeting room in the factory...? This says a LOT about the business itself. It says that this is a CEO who can't delegate and, when he does, makes bad choices about who he delegates to. We are already over two years from Model 3 deposits opening, and closing on a year from the first production cars being built. Cars will allegedly be delivered to all of the initial deposit-holders within 3-6mo, which is 6-9mo later than promised.

But is THAT feasible? Do the sums... 17,000 cars to date, 2,600/week at the moment. In three months time, at that level, that'll take us to about 50,000 cars in total. At full speed, 5,000 cars a week, that's 65,000 in 13 weeks. Yet nearly half a million deposits were placed within the first few months in 2016?

Stageshoot · 17 April 2018 at 11:43AM

Good Option if you want to take your EV on a European road trip

I wanted to take my car on a european theme park road trip but was put off by the number of different charging networks and accounts needed (Worse than the UK)

then came across this Newmotion Roaming cards. Works across loads of European Networks (Only Shell Chargers in the UK at the moment and as they take credit card anyway not much point)

But if you are planning a trip to europe. the card is free and there are no monthly account fees to have it,.

you just pay for the charge used at the same rate as a local account holder, Newmotion add on a 0.35euro fee for each charged used.

Seems to be a good payg option for anyone making odd trips to europe,

Hy8tJ30i5kVSnrmdCwtsYfBJtGW7W6SI5hxVozlklHul3GHanYaeqZ1PKCgEvdvuzjiBJcRm2wU4KzoqaOIfb4uXS2HL3mIotYFb0eE8UEKX_GmGB4DRHpnKrf3aipCPhLbgLlDaH0nlYOk4c7vjjofD5B2t5inlaYAXpRiIbji59dh5nNeb2xfgTpKwykTKfjVGTBt645K2yIWUMGfYet7ZGvybL5WsdC_HAFjA4lR59GacmLN17xzBIuhatUaYlBeUTVzuBe3rgBXRgNF8ju2VRS6l-N96bUsOpFIU_oMY7DE0SvafGqgAKApw2X8unhBuJAXbhAosmz1IHLFjhWRwlY1tZS47l_p48ErNszoZy8a7rnqAg10scaYqn75UnLy0AEk0Tdxif2GZzZzeVq6yUvu3i2-BEc95pn0oRTR5fnTyp5EUFVwukuHnYC2pIUqhwVU_hVyBM4gnycwR9uV2WjI9HDGM2OaINg81vc5yqedUOr_HtHZBm18C71RoeWNnWATI_48n1U5Cem73wZIS_A6tvjAINNWgXmHo_CoNfcFX0B-gnn_0r3uZP6xyW7S56kDSJ9hAyHlw6lnjkfXogvSnHUAQuKuJuCIr=w1280-h1705-no

Martyn1981 · 17 April 2018 at 12:51PM

AdrianC wrote: »

...and then you wonder why I call you a fanboi.

Your interest in the sustainable future of transport stretches no further than fawning at the feet of your favourite sleb, and gawd help any facts or reality that get in the way of that deification.

Says the PSA fanboi!

So, these truck 'facts' you stated, are you going to supply proof, or admit you made em all up?

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