Electric cars

Martyn1981

The Tesla Y is getting closer, though late 2019 sounds overly optimistic.

Elon did say a while back that the CAPEX on a 1m cars pa Y production line would be about the same (or possibly less) than the 1/2m Model 3 production line CAPEX, so that's good news.

Also the solar tiles are now being supplied to non Tesla staff, and the batts still can't meet demand. Lastly, if the truck delivers on the launch specs, then they expect to be somewhere around 100,000pa by 2022, making it an enormous cash cow for the company.

Rumor: Tesla Model Y Production To Begin In November 2019


Other Tesla news of interest in the states, is when they'll hit 200,000 US cars delivered, which will then begin the tax credit degression.

If they keep selling M3's in the states it'll happen before 1st July, so exporting most of the M3's (this quarter) to lucky Canada, would delay all of the degressions by an extra qtr.

And, oddly, the US leccy generators have grouped together and asked the US govt to reconsider the 200,000 rule, as they are losing business fast to renewables, especially demand side generation, so want as many EV's as possible on the roads .... as they'll also be on the grids. Funny ole world.

almillar

To save time arguing about whether PSA should be protected against the naughty Chinese

Utterly not what I was arguing about! Not arguing about anything in the article at all, just 'not great supporters' comment.

So you may argue that PSA popping their badge on another companies EV means they should be protected from the Chinese

I said nothing of the sort!

Here's my first comment on anything to do with China - I'd be pretty sure that most cars made today, on the planet, have something from China inside them. And with the rise of electronics in cars, and the rise of Chinese electronics, it has been, and will be, more and more. Even more so with electric cars, whose batteries will very likely be Asian at least. So Peugeot have been taking advantage of nice cheap Chinese components for plenty of time, and I would AGREE with you, that they seem a bit off asking for restrictions on Chinese stuff.

I don't see any Chinese cars on UK roads just yet (I do see some MGs, I guess that might count) so I'm not worried about a Chinese takeover.

Looks like the PSA fanbois are out in force today!

I'm a big fan of Citroen, not at all of Peugeot. I don't think anything AdrianC or I have said get anywhere near 'fanboi' status.

AdrianC

almillar wrote: »

I don't see any Chinese cars on UK roads just yet (I do see some MGs, I guess that might count) so I'm not worried about a Chinese takeover.

MG definitely counts, as does LTI (or whatever they're called this week). Does Volvo count...?

The commercial market's where they're starting off. There's plenty of King Long coaches, Great Wall pickups, DSFK sootyvans etc.

Then, of course, and bang-on-topic for this thread, there's BYD, still attempting to sell electric cars into the UK.

Going back to PSA, I'm really not sure they are asking for restrictions on Chinese vehicle imports, especially since they're about to start rebadging and importing a Changan pickup as an attempt to rival the Renault Alaskan, Fiat Fullback etc.

Martyn1981

almillar wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Citroen, not at all of Peugeot. I don't think anything AdrianC or I have said get anywhere near 'fanboi' status.

It was a joke, because Adrian calls us fanbois if we say anything nice about Tesla.

Now, the PSA article is that they want protection from the Chinese, because the Chinese are well ahead of them with EV's.

Had PSA supported EV's, by developing them, rather than re-badging some Mitsu's, then they might not be in that position. They dragged their heels, as have many (most?) of the old school.

I think the article I posted, and the host of articles I gave you afterwards, support my statement:

This is a fun article. PSA, who haven't supported the EV idea, are now complaining that the sneaky Chinese (who have) might take market share by supplying cars that PSA doesn't build.

Perhaps PSA should stop complaining and build a load of EV's then?

Your attempt to create something different from what I posted is a waste of time. I don't believe PSA have done enough, and now they need to catch up, or shut up.

I suspect your posts are simply misinterpretations of what I've said, given that it is supported by all of the articles - please see the articles, the comments and those boldened examples I gave you. Cheers.

Edit - Just a thought, but if you are right, and I'm wrong about PSA and their EV support, then that means PSA are wrong too, since they claim they need protection from the EV boys. Perhaps this all boils down to us having different opinions on what support is. Selling re-badged EV's is massive support if you are an independent car retailer, but for any car manufacturer that wants to stay in business, they'll need to do a lot, lot better than that.

Martyn1981

Range anxiety, what range anxiety?

World's first electrified road for charging vehicles opens in Sweden

The world’s first electrified road that recharges the batteries of cars and trucks driving on it has been opened in Sweden.

About 2km (1.2 miles) of electric rail has been embedded in a public road near Stockholm, but the government’s roads agency has already drafted a national map for future expansion.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Had PSA supported EV's, by developing them

...which they have been for decades, FAR longer than most...

Contemporary publicity:

1995 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8jFCNyV3ZE
1997 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37HHCWTkMbk
1998 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_VHJsYKqM
2013 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWJCKBkiGfs

PSA's EV work was going down the fuel cell route during the 00s, rather than the relative cop-out of simply plugging into the mains.
2006 - http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/peugeot_citron__1.html

2009 - http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/5773/psa-peugeot-citro-n-unveils-rechargeable-fuel-cell-hybrid-demonstrator-vehicle/

rather than re-badging some Mitsu's

Apart from the minor detail that the C-Zero and iOn have been on the market since 2010...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/peugeot/peugeot-i0n-electric-car-at-2009-frankfurt-motor-show/

...you do realise that such cross-manufacturer JVs are fairly commonplace, and that the PSA/Mitsu tie-up has included various IC vehicles, too? Outlander/C-Crosser/4007, ASX/C4 Aircross/4008. In return (and the electric development of the i-MiEV/C-Zero/iOn was two-way), Mitsu gained access to PSA's diesel engines at a time when they had none of their own.

Frankly, the i-MiEV's biggest failings are due to the base vehicle, the thoroughly mediocre Mitsu i, which was a dismal failure as an IC vehicle and had been dropped from European sale before the electric version came back. God knows what PSA were thinking, tbh, given that they did have all that internal knowledge to work from.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

...which they have been for decades, FAR longer than most...

Contemporary publicity:

1995 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8jFCNyV3ZE
1997 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37HHCWTkMbk
1998 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_VHJsYKqM
2013 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWJCKBkiGfs

PSA's EV work was going down the fuel cell route during the 00s, rather than the relative cop-out of simply plugging into the mains.
2006 - http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/peugeot_citron__1.html

2009 - http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/5773/psa-peugeot-citro-n-unveils-rechargeable-fuel-cell-hybrid-demonstrator-vehicle/

Apart from the minor detail that the C-Zero and iOn have been on the market since 2010...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/peugeot/peugeot-i0n-electric-car-at-2009-frankfurt-motor-show/

...you do realise that such cross-manufacturer JVs are fairly commonplace, and that the PSA/Mitsu tie-up has included various IC vehicles, too? Outlander/C-Crosser/4007, ASX/C4 Aircross/4008. In return (and the electric development of the i-MiEV/C-Zero/iOn was two-way), Mitsu gained access to PSA's diesel engines at a time when they had none of their own.

Frankly, the i-MiEV's biggest failings are due to the base vehicle, the thoroughly mediocre Mitsu i, which was a dismal failure as an IC vehicle and had been dropped from European sale before the electric version came back. God knows what PSA were thinking, tbh, given that they did have all that internal knowledge to work from.

Wow, so much faux outrage from the PSA fanbois. Still flogging away at a dead horse!

Perhaps you should let the authors of all the articles know that you know better?

BTW, still waiting for you to answer the questions:

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Perhaps you should let the authors of all the articles know that you know better?

Here's a thought... perhaps journos can be wrong...?


So, we're all agreed that PSA do actually have some fairly substantial background in the EV market, and haven't just sat with their thumbs up bums?


Here's a couple of old articles on the La Rochelle projects. They're in French, but Google will make a decent fist of translating it if you're not particularly francophonic.


1994 - (Les Echos - French equivalent of the FT) - https://www.lesechos.fr/05/10/1994/LesEchos/16744-130-ECH_voiture-electrique--psa-prend-une-longueur-d-avance-en-europe.htm


1999 - (l'Argus - French mainstream car mag) - http://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/la-rochelle-lance-les-forfaits-voiture-electrique-5006.html


Tell me that wasn't way ahead of its time...


As for that Swedish scalextric track... Mmm. I wonder what current it can transfer without posing a risk to wildlife, cyclists, dog walkers?

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Here's a thought... perhaps journos can be wrong...?


So, we're all agreed that PSA do actually have some fairly substantial background in the EV market, and haven't just sat with their thumbs up bums?


Here's a couple of old articles on the La Rochelle projects. They're in French, but Google will make a decent fist of translating it if you're not particularly francophonic.


1994 - (Les Echos - French equivalent of the FT) - https://www.lesechos.fr/05/10/1994/LesEchos/16744-130-ECH_voiture-electrique--psa-prend-une-longueur-d-avance-en-europe.htm


1999 - (l'Argus - French mainstream car mag) - http://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/la-rochelle-lance-les-forfaits-voiture-electrique-5006.html


Tell me that wasn't way ahead of its time...


As for that Swedish scalextric track... Mmm. I wonder what current it can transfer without posing a risk to wildlife, cyclists, dog walkers?

Also, you need to let PSA know that they are wrong, after all, this whole discussion started because they fear they won't be able to compete against companies that have supported EV's.

So it seems you want to pick a fight with me, the journo's and PSA themselves. Bit silly don't you think - just like this whole daft, pointless argument.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

As for that Swedish scalextric track... Mmm. I wonder what current it can transfer without posing a risk to wildlife, cyclists, dog walkers?

Here's a suggestion, before you spread more of your usual EV negativity, perhaps read the article?

Säll said: "There is no electricity on the surface. There are two tracks, just like an outlet in the wall. Five or six centimetres down is where the electricity is. But if you flood the road with salt water then we have found that the electricity level at the surface is just one volt. You could walk on it barefoot."

PS - do you normally walk a dog or cycle down a main highway?


BTW, still waiting for you to answer the questions:

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?