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    • Idiophreak
    • By Idiophreak 2nd Jul 12, 4:48 PM
    • 11,635 Posts
    • 15,175 Thanks
    Idiophreak
    Every time a "holier than thou" cyclist tries to claim they are justified in breaking the law because there are stupid, careless and dangerous drivers around - it weakens the position for cyclists as a whole.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Where's anybody advocating breaking the law, here?

    Personally, I've made a couple of "adjustments" to the way I ride, in light of my recent experiences.

    I go through red lights, if there's no good reason to stop...I'm sorry, a red light isn't, in itself, a good reason...for example, there are two junctions by my home where the sequencing should allow for a filter light on the left hand lane, as traffic from the left turns across traffic from the right (which is on a red light). So I can set off safe in the knowledge that nothing will be coming and get out of the way of cars sat queuing in that lane.

    I cycle further into the road than is suggested. Particularly when approaching stopped traffic (for the reason above) and on narrow roads with oncoming traffic.

    I'd suggest, however, that both of these are just instances of me cycling in the safest way possible, which is perfectly within the spirit of the laws involved.
  • Harry Flashman

    I go through red lights, if there's no good reason to stop...I'm sorry, a red light isn't, in itself, a good reason...for example, there are two junctions by my home where the sequencing should allow for a filter light on the left hand lane, as traffic from the left turns across traffic from the right (which is on a red light). So I can set off safe in the knowledge that nothing will be coming and get out of the way of cars sat queuing in that lane.

    I cycle further into the road than is suggested. Particularly when approaching stopped traffic (for the reason above) and on narrow roads with oncoming traffic.

    I'd suggest, however, that both of these are just instances of me cycling in the safest way possible, which is perfectly within the spirit of the laws involved.
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    In that case - don't start whining when you get knocked off.
  • Harry Flashman
    I think driver top up training is a great idea. I am both a driver and avid cyclist and have had some squeaky bum moments on both sides of the wind shield.

    I think a lot of it comes down to road awareness and I am not sure how you are meant to teach people to be more aware when they drive every single day?
    Originally posted by Mechan135
    The trouble with that is that it would become yet another tax on the motorist.
  • mikey72
    In that case - don't start whining when you get knocked off.
    Originally posted by Harry Flashman
    That'll be the day they change the filter system. Still, Darwinism works for me.
    • Idiophreak
    • By Idiophreak 2nd Jul 12, 8:55 PM
    • 11,635 Posts
    • 15,175 Thanks
    Idiophreak
    In that case - don't start whining when you get knocked off.
    Originally posted by Harry Flashman
    Err...Sorry...why exactly? What am I doing wrong?
    • marlot
    • By marlot 2nd Jul 12, 9:16 PM
    • 4,124 Posts
    • 3,242 Thanks
    marlot
    The trouble with that is that it would become yet another tax on the motorist.
    Originally posted by Harry Flashman
    We already pay the tax, just in a different form.

    2,000 deaths on the roads, plus seriously injured. Along with the police, NHS and fire/rescue services.
  • mikey72
    Err...Sorry...why exactly? What am I doing wrong?
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    Don't worry, you're fine. Cyclists don't need to worry about red lights. I've a jet wash.
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 2nd Jul 12, 9:30 PM
    • 2,623 Posts
    • 1,749 Thanks
    Johnmcl7
    Err...Sorry...why exactly? What am I doing wrong?
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    Contravening a red light which regardless of what you believe about the spirit of the law (which has no legal standing) is illegal and as a cyclist I don't agree with your justification either. I stop at red lights regardless of how safe or unsafe I think it is to continue because that's what everyone else using the roads and pavements around me is expecting, it's no surprise that it annoys people when cyclists ignore red lights. If I want to proceed past the red light without waiting then I get off the bike and follow any rules for walking such as waiting for a green man on the crossing particularly as I don't normally filter through traffic. I am surprised to see someone defending such behaviour particularly when it's normally a cyclist that will be worse off in any collision.

    John
    • Idiophreak
    • By Idiophreak 2nd Jul 12, 10:59 PM
    • 11,635 Posts
    • 15,175 Thanks
    Idiophreak
    Contravening a red light which regardless of what you believe about the spirit of the law (which has no legal standing) is illegal and as a cyclist I don't agree with your justification either. I stop at red lights regardless of how safe or unsafe I think it is to continue because that's what everyone else using the roads and pavements around me is expecting, it's no surprise that it annoys people when cyclists ignore red lights. If I want to proceed past the red light without waiting then I get off the bike and follow any rules for walking such as waiting for a green man on the crossing particularly as I don't normally filter through traffic. I am surprised to see someone defending such behaviour particularly when it's normally a cyclist that will be worse off in any collision.
    Originally posted by Johnmcl7
    Hmm, well that rather depends who the collision's between, doesn't it? I understand pedestrians quite often come off worse in collisions with bikes...

    In any case, there would be no collision in these instances, given that there's no traffic flowing anywhere near me. There's absolutely no reason the filter lights couldn't be on for cars, let alone cyclists. If you'd rather I hopped off my bike, walked 5 yards on the pavement then got back on, that's great, but it sounds like a waste of time to me...I'd rather just get on and get out of motorists' way.

    As a driver, I'd be much more annoyed by the cyclist that waits at the red light then wobbles off at the front of the queue and stops me, a driver, from getting through the lights before they change. But, each to their own.

    As an aside, I know it's very big and clever to point out how stupid you think other people on the internet are, how everything they do is wrong...but really it wouldn't hurt to credit other people with a modicum of common sense.

    mikey72's post is a prime example. Yes, the second they change the filter system, I'll be knocked down and killed. Because I just close my eyes and cycle flat out around the corner, *knowing* there will be nothing coming. For the love of God. I open my eyes. I look both ways, I look ahead...I see *no reason* for me to be sat, holding everyone up, so I just get on with it. Big whoop.

    I really don't know why you assume that you, random guy on the internet, know better what's safe and sensible in another person's situation. I don't go through red lights if it means crossing the path of a green light. If I'm not at the front of the queue, I wait patiently in turn with everyone else. Unbelievable arrogance.

    In any case, let's just agree that you're clever, wise and generally a great person and I'm just some stupid idiot who, apparently, deserves to die for getting out of motorists' way. Bravo!
    • Tilt
    • By Tilt 2nd Jul 12, 11:24 PM
    • 3,559 Posts
    • 1,712 Thanks
    Tilt
    Kids where I live are always playing 'Russian Roulette' by riding 3 or 4 abreast... at night... along a frequently used narrow road... without so much as a milk bottle top for a reflector between them. My house over looks a traffic island as well where they sometimes cycle round the wrong way... I see it all the time. I suppose it will be the motorist fault if they get knocked off and injured.
    PLEASE NOTE
    My advice should be used as guidance only. You should always obtain face to face professional advice before taking any action.
  • mikey72
    ..........mikey72's post is a prime example. Yes, the second they change the filter system, I'll be knocked down and killed. Because I just close my eyes and cycle flat out around the corner, *knowing* there will be nothing coming. For the love of God. I open my eyes. I look both ways, I look ahead...
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    Prime example of what? I won't be looking for you. I'll just drive off when I get a green light. If you're in the way, there's a fair chance I'll just run over you. But if you see me, you'll get out of my way then, so fair enough. Don't give me any credit for trying to avoid you though.
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 2nd Jul 12, 11:38 PM
    • 11,622 Posts
    • 6,535 Thanks
    Strider590
    Kids where I live are always playing 'Russian Roulette' by riding 3 or 4 abreast... at night... along a frequently used narrow road... without so much as a milk bottle top for a reflector between them. My house over looks a traffic island as well where they sometimes cycle round the wrong way... I see it all the time. I suppose it will be the motorist fault if they get knocked off and injured.
    Originally posted by Tilt

    Kids do lots of stupid things..... But because they're on bikes, that automatically makes all cyclists the same?
    I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an a** of yourself.

    <><><><><><><><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Don't forget to like and subscribe \/ \/ \/
    • Tilt
    • By Tilt 2nd Jul 12, 11:41 PM
    • 3,559 Posts
    • 1,712 Thanks
    Tilt
    Kids do lots of stupid things..... But because they're on bikes, that automatically makes all cyclists the same?
    Originally posted by Strider590
    Did I say that?
    PLEASE NOTE
    My advice should be used as guidance only. You should always obtain face to face professional advice before taking any action.
    • Idiophreak
    • By Idiophreak 2nd Jul 12, 11:53 PM
    • 11,635 Posts
    • 15,175 Thanks
    Idiophreak
    Prime example of what? I won't be looking for you. I'll just drive off when I get a green light. If you're in the way, there's a fair chance I'll just run over you. But if you see me, you'll get out of my way then, so fair enough. Don't give me any credit for trying to avoid you though.
    Originally posted by mikey72
    Prime example of not crediting people with common sense, or wanting to think the worst of people, in order to inflate your own self-esteem.

    So you're saying you don't look where you're going when you move off from traffic lights? I don't really understand what you're saying. If you're saying that, as I've gone through the red light, you may run me over...do try and read what I've written a little more. If you move off as I'm going through the red light, you will crash, first, into a big queue of cars, all of whom are turning across the front of your car between you and I.

    Of course, in the real world, you'd actually sit and wait for those people to go across, as your light remains on red. You'd then wait, by the way, for everyone coming from your left to go through, and any people from the right. Finally, you get your chance to "not see me" and run me over. Of course, in the 3 minutes it takes that sequence to play through, I'll be best part of a mile up the road. But, whatever, why let facts get in the way of deranged internet ranting.
    • janninew
    • By janninew 2nd Jul 12, 11:59 PM
    • 3,811 Posts
    • 7,185 Thanks
    janninew
    Where's anybody advocating breaking the law, here?

    Personally, I've made a couple of "adjustments" to the way I ride, in light of my recent experiences.

    I go through red lights, if there's no good reason to stop...I'm sorry, a red light isn't, in itself, a good reason...for example, there are two junctions by my home where the sequencing should allow for a filter light on the left hand lane, as traffic from the left turns across traffic from the right (which is on a red light). So I can set off safe in the knowledge that nothing will be coming and get out of the way of cars sat queuing in that lane.

    I cycle further into the road than is suggested. Particularly when approaching stopped traffic (for the reason above) and on narrow roads with oncoming traffic.

    I'd suggest, however, that both of these are just instances of me cycling in the safest way possible, which is perfectly within the spirit of the laws involved.
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    Is it not the law though to stop at red lights when you are a road user? A car driver could say what's the point in stopping at a red light if they are using the roads in the early hours and they can see no other cars about. I use to work night shifts and would always stop at red lights even though I could see quite clearly that there wasn't another soul in sight! Following your own rules on the road is slightly worrying, are you a car driver, do you have your own set of rules when in your vehicle as well?
    Newborn Thread Member

    'Children reinvent the world for you.' - Susan Sarandan
    • Tilt
    • By Tilt 3rd Jul 12, 12:03 AM
    • 3,559 Posts
    • 1,712 Thanks
    Tilt
    ^^ Just what I was thinking ^^ I wonder if he bothers with having lights on his bike as well...
    PLEASE NOTE
    My advice should be used as guidance only. You should always obtain face to face professional advice before taking any action.
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 3rd Jul 12, 12:09 AM
    • 2,623 Posts
    • 1,749 Thanks
    Johnmcl7
    Hmm, well that rather depends who the collision's between, doesn't it? I understand pedestrians quite often come off worse in collisions with bikes...
    Originally posted by Idiophreak
    Hence why I said 'normally' and not 'every time'

    You asked what was wrong and I answered without an unnecessarily long post with numerous insults, it's a shame you couldn't do the same in return. I'm not bothering replying to the rest of your post as that gives it more credit than it's worth, the law does not agree with your view so you are in the wrong whether you believe it or not. If you believe you are correct then you can start campaigning for traffic lights to be abolished.

    John
  • FOX HOUND
    Last year in Wales deaths of adult male cyclists rose 85% according to the western mail.

    Being a keen cyclist myself I find its car drivers impatience that is the main problem. One example a roundabout where I live with multiple exits. I'm going straight on. Cars regularly come up from behind and go left by cutting in front of me because they won't wait a few extra seconds. Only yesterday I almost got sandwiched between parked cars and a vehicle turning right. I do keep left but in that circumstance probably should stay further out into the middle at that particular junction.

    You really have to have a sixth sense of what drivers are going to do to survive unscathed.
    As surely as night follows day capitalism will come crumbling down. On a mission to secure a just and ethical society.
  • Dave_C
    As is usual on internet forums discussing cyclist and motorists, this has quickly devolved into an "us and them" situation and it's rather sickening. As a driver and a cyclist I can see both sides. I have been there on the "all cyclists are scum" side until a year or so ago when I took up cycling again after a few decades break.

    To all non-cycling motorists who have a downer on cycling I can honestly say that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about - until you have actually been riding a bike in traffic.

    To the militant cyclists, the reverse is also true. FFS it's the law of the land! Red light jumping and pavement cycling does our image no good at all.

    We are talking road safety here, lives depend on us all making the right choices.

    Dave
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 3rd Jul 12, 1:16 AM
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    Johnmcl7
    I find it disappointing that what was a very good point in the initial post viz. those who cause death by careless or dangerous driving may be getting off too lightly - has been partly derailed by the usual "some cyclists are idiots"/"more drivers are idiots" debate.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    That's a fair point, I guess the difficulty in this case is that we're only seeing a portion of the facts and not everything that was involved with the court case. It makes me wonder would the cases be different if the cyclists were wearing cameras? I can't work what happened in the first case, it says the cyclist was visible but another vehicle had got in the way, was the cyclist hit from the back or the front?

    John
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