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IAS APPEAL....feedback appreciated

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Southernsoftie_jo
Southernsoftie_jo Posts: 100 Forumite
edited 16 March 2019 at 8:45AM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Hi

I'm about to do my IAS appeal having been rejected by the PPC (no surprise), and would value some feedback before I go ahead. I'm aware there is some debate as to whether an appeal with IAS is of value or not and that it is highly likely to be rejected, however it seems the right thing to me to do.

Background....my car was parked on a private estate in a designated parking bay, with no visitor permit displayed hence the ticket from U.K. CPM. It was sent through the post.

The 'private estate' starts upon taking an exit off a roundabout which is public highway so it is not apparent that you have entered private land.

There is a sign, which does contain the words private land and sets out the requirement of a permit for all users etc etc however it is at least 7 foot high and the writing is tiny. I can barely read it when standing underneath it, not to mention a few feet away from it in a moving vehicle having just turned off the roundabout.

There is also a sign a few meters away from where the car was parked but it is also extremely high with small text and nance not legible from the car.

There is a repeated sign on the property that is snapped in half. The entrance sign I took photos of a few weeks ago has now deteriorated further in as much as large parts of it are missing, so it isn't of robust quality either.

Hopefully the following will now make sense. I've taken the angle of poor signage=no contract exists

Thanks for your input......

(Don't be too harsh, this was knocked together with a baby and toddler at my feet and I did my research before asking for help, including reading the newbie thread)

Appeal.......

As an Accredited IPC Operator UKCPM are required to adhere to the IPC Code of Conduct.

UKCPM have failed to adhere to Section 2.1 of The Code, with regards their signage meeting minimum standards. The IPC Code states that its members 'must conform to the requiremnets as set out in Schedule 1' (Section 2.2)

Schedule 1 states that 'Entrance signs should make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land'

The Code requires IPC members to 'adequately display any signs intended to form the basis of contract between the creditor and the driver'.

Signage should 'be clearly legible and placed in such a position (or positions) such that a driver of a vehicle is able to see them clearly upon entering the site or parking a vehicle within the site'.

It should 'contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relevant position of the person who it is aimed at'.

The photograph evidence shows the entrance sign positioned on a pole, perpendicular to the road at a height of about 7 feet high. The sign is not of a large enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. The lettering is too small to be visible to a driver when considering the height of the sign and the likely position of a motorist (in their car) upon entering the site. This contravenes the IPC Code, Schedule 1.

This entrance sign is on a 30mph road which is an exit off a roundabout - drivers will be passing this sign at a speed which renders it unnoticeable given its position and size.

The sign near where the vehicle was parked is positioned in the same manner and of the same size as the entrance sign. It is not evident from this sign that private land has been entered because it is not clearly visible from the parking space. Letters look smaller when positioned up high and the angle of sight renders words less readable due to their perspective.

The signage is in clear breach of the aforementioned points detailed in the IPC Code which UKCPM should adhere to.

Furthermore, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states a 'requirement for transparency' in establishing a contract and 'a trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent'.

I also refer to 'Vine -v- London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' which found in favour of the driver, that they could not be deemed bound by the terms of the contract, where they were not clearly visible.


In this instance a contract cannot be said to have been established between the UKCPM and the driver as the driver was not made aware of the terms or that the land was private property. In the absence of a contract, terms cannot be said to have been 'breached' and as such the £100 parking charge is unenforceable because it was not agreed to.
«13456718

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,753 Forumite
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    edited 3 April 2017 at 8:15PM
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    That will lose, then you will feel more on the back foot than now. There is nothing in that appeal for the IAS to even consider relevant. You wouldn't win at POPLA with that either, had this been a BPA firm.

    IAS is IMHO not worth trying unless there are unusual circumstances pointing towards a winning point. Losing this works against you. Far better to ignore them now, I know you don't want to hear that but it is true and you can't be judged by that decision as you tried an appeal then stopped when you researched the IAS and realised it's considered a kangaroo court.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Southernsoftie_jo
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    Thanks for your thoughts. Are you suggesting I ignore the rejection then and just don't appeal?

    I can see having two 'lost' appeals behind me isn't in my favour, but how does not engaging in the process help, if it were to get to a court case? Or are you thinking it so unlikely that it will it doesn't matter?!

    Would you mind explaining why my words so far would be likely to be an outright lose? Surely the adequacy of the signage is very relevant??

    Thank you for your time and thoughts
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,753 Forumite
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    edited 3 April 2017 at 8:33PM
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    The IAS will look for pictures of signs (any old pics the PPC produce) and will say that the signs were adequate. I've never seen an IAS appeal won on signage and can count on one hand the IAS wins I can recall AT ALL on here in all the years it's been tried.

    You would need much more than that to convince the IAS (that will definitely lose) but yes, in a real court hearing the Judge would consider that the adequacy of signage is very relevant.
    Are you suggesting I ignore the rejection then and just don't appeal?
    Absolutely. That's the advice in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about not bothering with the IAS. If you must respond, use the response suggested there in a link to the Parking Prankster's blog about asking for alternative ADR (which you won't get). I wouldn't bother, personally.
    ...how does not engaging in the process help, if it were to get to a court case?
    Because engaging hinders you badly. A Judge will not know about the IAS and the PPC will paint it as an independent ADR and use the decision to add weight to their side.

    Whereas it is easy and can be more persuasive to support your defence rather than saying ''wah, it's not fair, I disagree with the IAS decision'' to actually explain to the Judge why you chose not to, seeing as it's run by the same people who run the IPC Trade body AND run Gladstones solicitors, both of which can be considered to have a vested interest in a charge not being cancelled.

    A defence can point this conflict of interests out:
    Following an unsuccessful appeal to the Claimant, I researched the matter online and discovered that the Claimant is a member of the Independent Parking Committee (IPC), an organisation operated by the same directors as Gladstones Solicitors. The same controlling minds also operate the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the allegedly independent body appointed by the Claimant’s Trade Body, the IPC, so any appeal would have been doomed to failure.

    My research revealed that the IAS, far from being independent, is a subsidiary of the IPC, which in turn is owned and run by the same two Directors who also run Gladstones Solicitors. The individuals in question are John Davies, and William Hurley. This set-up is incapable of providing any fair means for motorists to challenge parking charges, as well as potentially breaching the SRA Code of Conduct. This claimant's Solicitors appear to pay little regard to the 'overriding objective' within pre-court protocols, issuing incoherent copy & paste claims with no due diligence.

    Further, a solicitor from Gladstones is in the public domain as having admitted that they do not charge enough money to bother to comply with the Practice Direction. Since their robo-claims usually cause frightened victims to pay, they cannot see the need:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/brian-hargreaves-to-claim-back-costs.html

    Helen Cook of Gladstones has been reliably quoted as stating: ‘‘We issue on a vast majority of claims, majority of which are not defended and therefore it is time consuming and not financially viable to send further particulars of claim.’’

    Due to this conflict of interests, the Claimant does not come to this matter with clean hands and indeed this Claimant moved from the British Parking Association Trade Body to the IPC in 2015, due to the fact they were losing most POPLA appeals and the IPC offered a questionable 'appeal' service. Bizarre results are reported, invariably favouring their members and putting consumers to proof of matters which they have no knowledge of - facts which in a real court of law would rest squarely as the burden of the Claimant to prove. I decided I would prefer a truly independent court to hear this defence and there was no reason so engage with anonymous assessors chosen by Mr Hurley and Mr Davies.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Southernsoftie_jo
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    Ok I think I get it. You're saying my points are valid, but just won't be recognised by the IAS people who always favour the PPC?

    Take the same points to a real court and I will be taken seriously?

    Ok so I think you've persuaded me to not appeal and ignore. I absolutely see your points but I'm one for following the rule book (kind of ironic I'm in this predicament) and it pains me to not follow the 'official' process. But if IAS are as bad as you say they are then yes I will save my time and energy as I have little of either!

    So do I expect the hysterical debt collectors letters next then?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,753 Forumite
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    edited 3 April 2017 at 9:25PM
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    Yes to all those questions - and keep all letters for up to six years. More than likely you will join the forum fun of defending a Gladstones claim later this year! On this forum, we've never lost one that I can recall thus far, in cases where the OPs followed the advice here and got our free assistance at defence and witness statement/evidence stage.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Southernsoftie_jo
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    Haha!! Look forward to it!

    Went to the place of the alleged contravention today and am truly enraged as the signs are terrible, in worse condition than a few months ago even. You truly cannot know you are on private land - it's just a road off a roundabout with flats on. I'm sure the only people who read the 7 foot high signs are those who eventually spot them after getting a ticket!

    Feel motivated to fight this all the way

    Thanks for your encouragement. No doubt I'll be back in a panic when the nasty layers roll in

    Anything I can do now to help things other than keep correspondence?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,753 Forumite
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    I would read the forum and/or the Parking Prankster's blog every day, looking for Gladstones cases so you become fully appraised of how to defend and what wins.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,357 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    I would read the forum and/or the Parking Prankster's blog every day, looking for Gladstones cases so you become fully appraised of how to defend and what wins.

    Absolutely concur with that advice. The number of people we advise to prepare well in advance who subsequently ignore it, adopt the ostrich position, hope it all goes away if they don't think about it ......... then 6 months later they're back 'help, help, yelp, I've got court papers' (along with 20 exclamation marks - as if they help!).
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Southernsoftie_jo
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    Ok will keep myself informed
    Is this the main forum I keep watch on?

    Would you mind explaining the likely process after I've ignored all the (hysterical) debt collection letters?

    Also I'd like to show you pics of signs

    Can't use GSV as estate not built when cameras went round

    Can someone remind me how to create a URL to post an image please?

    Thank you very much
  • DoaM
    DoaM Posts: 11,863 Forumite
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    Upload photos to a hosting site (e.g. Photobucket, Imgur, Tinypic etc.) then post links to them in a reply here.

    If the forum won't let you post links, change http to hxxp
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