Electric cars

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  • Gloomendoom
    Gloomendoom Posts: 16,550 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    But don't worry, the rest of the world will just move along till you choose to dip a toe in the water, or not.

    Exactly. There is no rush.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,796 Forumite
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    UK National Grid accelerates EV adoption with installation of super rapid charging stations
    The U.K.’s National Grid has located around 50 strategic areas where ultra-fast charging banks for electric vehicles (EVs) could be positioned.

    By analyzing where the electricity transmission network runs close to the motorway network, it has been able to pinpoint where the most efficient connection for such charging points will be.

    This patchwork will reportedly mean that 90% of all EV drivers will never be more than 50 miles from a charging station, thus helping to alleviate an acute condition called “range anxiety”, which the industry has identified as a factor deterring people from purchasing EVs.

    The 350 kW chargers would be able to recharge cars fully in around 5 -12 minutes, which is an impressive feat. By comparison, home chargers are usually only around 7 kW to 11 kW in capacity, and thus can take many hours to charge a car fully.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    I think that article proves the point I've had shot down many times...

    By finding points at which the grid runs conveniently close to the motorway, they've identified 50 places where 350kW chargers could be placed without major grid upgrading. There are currently nearly 90 motorway services on 2,200 miles of motorway - and that's half of the strategic road network, itself just under 3% of the total road network. They don't say how many chargers at each location. 350kW is 30A at 11kV. Per charger.

    Oh, and the total cost for their "transmission action plan"? Half to one billion quid. The article doesn't link to anything about this plan, so we don't know if this is JUST for this project (£10-20m per site...? Not hard at all, if there don't happen to be pre-existing service areas at those 50 sites) or something bigger. And this will go "some way" to alleviating the concerns that we're regularly told in this thread simply don't exist outside of the minds of those who clearly have vested interests...

    350kW will fully recharge a single 100kWh battery in 17min - theoretically... If by "fully", they're really talking about 80% charged, then 5min is the theoretical bare minimum for a nominal 36kWh battery. So if we look at 60-80kWh batteries in sensible-range EV cars, then we're looking at a throughput of about five cars per hour per charger, less once people have finished fannying about.
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
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    Towing with a vehicle that hasn't been specifically type approved for towing is illegal.

    ... In the UK. In Norway they can fit towbars to the Kia Soul EV, for example.

    The reason there aren't any towing EVs yet (pure EV) apart from Tesla, is simply priorities in a new market. It's another one of those 'edge cases'. It takes significant investment to do it, for not much reward, when they're struggling to get the things off the design table and out of the factory.
    People were banging on about not buying cars without a spare wheel - it's going. Look at that massive hole they have to design into the floor of the car, and think about the consequence in an impact. With the safety they're chasing, and later the economy, carrying around a spare wheel, and all that supporting structure, just isn't worth it.
    Move to EVs, and as Adrian C says, at the moment, there's more weight (it's only about one size up though, for example, the Clio sized Zoe, weights roughly what a Megane weighs), and certainly long term, the weight distribution has moved. There is nothing stopping EVs from towing, they have plenty of torque as Martin says, making them good for towing, for example. But it's just not a priority yet. Work has to be done on the chassis (or it has to be designed from the ground up) to accommodate the battery - this is new stuff! There's strengthening to be done in places to make it the same as an ICE car, offset by more modest requirements under the bonnet. Add towing into that, and you just get into design and manufacture costs, that aren't worth it, for this generation of cars at least. Replace all the non-towing, easy cars first.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    ... In the UK. In Norway they can fit towbars to the Kia Soul EV, for example.
    Norway is subject to the exact same UNECE type approval regs as the UK.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,796 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    Norway is subject to the exact same UNECE type approval regs as the UK.

    But back to your initial comment:
    I'm confused. Are you now saying that EV's can't tow, because they haven't been approved for towing .... fine. But what were you on about before when you said that having batts in the floor and being heavier was the reason they can't be used for towing .... why?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Gloomendoom
    Gloomendoom Posts: 16,550 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    ... In the UK. In Norway they can fit towbars to the Kia Soul EV, for example.

    Because they aren't subject to EU type approval legislation? The US is similar. Towbars are available for Nissan Leafs over there...

    https://www.etrailer.com/hitch-2016_Nissan_Leaf.htm
    The reason there aren't any towing EVs yet (pure EV) apart from Tesla, is simply priorities in a new market. It's another one of those 'edge cases'. It takes significant investment to do it, for not much reward, when they're struggling to get the things off the design table and out of the factory.
    People were banging on about not buying cars without a spare wheel - it's going. Look at that massive hole they have to design into the floor of the car, and think about the consequence in an impact. With the safety they're chasing, and later the economy, carrying around a spare wheel, and all that supporting structure, just isn't worth it.
    Move to EVs, and as Adrian C says, at the moment, there's more weight (it's only about one size up though, for example, the Clio sized Zoe, weights roughly what a Megane weighs), and certainly long term, the weight distribution has moved. There is nothing stopping EVs from towing, they have plenty of torque as Martin says, making them good for towing, for example. But it's just not a priority yet. Work has to be done on the chassis (or it has to be designed from the ground up) to accommodate the battery - this is new stuff! There's strengthening to be done in places to make it the same as an ICE car, offset by more modest requirements under the bonnet. Add towing into that, and you just get into design and manufacture costs, that aren't worth it, for this generation of cars at least. Replace all the non-towing, easy cars first.

    Don't disagree with any of that. If you tow, however, the lack of full size spare wheel (or a spare wheel at all) is another problem seeking a solution regardless of motive power or type approval.

    Incidentally, I wonder if it is legal to fit a tow bar that is not used for towing. A bike rack for example.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    But back to your initial comment:
    If you didn't understand when I explained, read Al's comment just above.

    Have you ever seen how a towbar is fitted? Hint - it's not just bolted to the bumper.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Gloomendoom wrote: »
    Because they aren't subject to EU type approval legislation?
    Apart from Norway being EEA, so subject to EU rulings and directives, the type approval rules are UNECE - United Nations Economic Commission for Europe.
    Incidentally, I wonder if it is legal to fit a tow bar that is not used for towing. A bike rack for example.
    Yes, absolutely.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,796 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    If you didn't understand when I explained, read Al's comment just above.

    Have you ever seen how a towbar is fitted? Hint - it's not just bolted to the bumper.

    Hiya, I have no problem with tow bars, or towing.

    What I'm asking is why having batteries in the floor, and being heavier, mean they can't tow, or are less suitable for towing:-
    AdrianC wrote: »
    It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available.

    So I'm still looking for an explanation why these EV characteristics are detrimental to towing. I'd have thought the EV skateboard is actually closer to the older design of body on frame.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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