Electric cars

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Pardon? I thought the greater the weight of the tow vehicle the greater the weight it was allowed to tow (unbraked)?

Not even close to being that simple. I suspect you're getting confused with the 80% trailer-to-towcar rule of thumb so beloved of shed-draggers. That may or may not be wise, but it carries no legal weight at all.

First off, nothing at all can tow over 750kg trailer MAM (maximum authorised mass) unbraked, simply because all 750kg+ trailers must have all wheels automatically braked by the towcar. Over-run braking is fine to 3.5t MAM, but not above.

Look at the VIN plate of any even vaguely recent car, and you'll see four weights. Two are the axle (front and rear) max loadings. One is GVW - maximum laden vehicle weight, for the car itself. The last is GTW - maximum laden train weight, for car plus trailer. You cannot exceed any one of those. If the brakes or suspension are simply not constructed for much over the GVW, then the GTW would be minimal even if the vehicle was type approved for towing.

Then there's licence restrictions, especially for post-97 test passers who haven't done the B+E towing test, so are restricted to 3.5t GTW, or 3.5t GVW + 750kg trailer.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Not even close to being that simple. I suspect you're getting confused with the 80% trailer-to-towcar rule of thumb so beloved of shed-draggers. That may or may not be wise, but it carries no legal weight at all.

First off, nothing at all can tow over 750kg trailer MAM (maximum authorised mass) unbraked, simply because all 750kg+ trailers must have all wheels automatically braked by the towcar. Over-run braking is fine to 3.5t MAM, but not above.

Look at the VIN plate of any even vaguely recent car, and you'll see four weights. Two are the axle (front and rear) max loadings. One is GVW - maximum laden vehicle weight, for the car itself. The last is GTW - maximum laden train weight, for car plus trailer. You cannot exceed any one of those. If the brakes or suspension are simply not constructed for much over the GVW, then the GTW would be minimal even if the vehicle was type approved for towing.

Then there's licence restrictions, especially for post-97 test passers who haven't done the B+E towing test, so are restricted to 3.5t GTW, or 3.5t GVW + 750kg trailer.

What has any of that got to do with the weight of an EV?

Correction to earlier post, I meant braked trailer, which must weigh less than the tow vehicle.

Gloomendoom

zeupater wrote: »

We can all find excuses or arguments if we look for them, it's just the ability to recognise solutions that makes the difference.

HTH
Z

Or the ability to weigh up the pros and cons and make an informed decision based on the level of compromise that running an EV would require us to accept. We have tried running a tow car and a pure non-towing commuter before and it doesn't work for us.

Of course, if we wanted an EV for the sake of owning an EV, we could make it work, just like a square peg can be made to fit into a round hole if you are prepared to recognise a sledge hammer as an acceptable "solution".

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available.

Hi

I thought that the kerb weight issue had been addressed before ....

zeupater wrote: »

AdrianC wrote: »

...and let's not forget that the brakes on an EV are more complex, because of regeneration. The suspension is heavier-duty, because of the battery weight, than an equivalent.

B'sides, what's least reliable on modern cars?

The electronics.

Hi

I'm pretty sure that the kerb-weight of a Tesla-3 approximates to something like a Mondeo (etc, etc) so there's little difference apart from weight distribution ...

Regeneration is a pretty well tried & tested technology with literally hundreds-of-billions of miles/cycles of use in volume production vehicles since early this century ... the braking system may be more complex, but effectively kinetic energy is converted & transferred to battery storage by using the drive-train in reverse, the motor becomes a generator, therefore the standard consumable item wear (brake pads/discs) is heavily reduced in standard driving conditions thus also reducing airborne particulate matter, especially in urban environments.

HTH
Z

.. So if a Tesla weighs approximately the same as a Mondeo, it's not a kerb weight specific issue ...

A total guess would be related to manufacturers simply being cautious around the regenerative braking system specifications and range performance issues whilst battery packs are still relatively small ...

Anyway, if you want to tow a caravan from home to the coast buy a hybrid, if you've got horses, do the same - as for the occasional lightweight trailer for taking hedge clippings or old furniture to the tip, there's likely no issue apart from stopping someone with a vexatious streak buying a leaf sized EV then writing to a newspaper & complaining it won't tow their twin axle caravan all the way to Cornwall ...

HTH
Z

Gloomendoom

zeupater wrote: »

as for the occasional lightweight trailer for taking hedge clippings or old furniture to the tip, there's likely no issue apart from stopping someone with a vexatious streak buying a leaf sized EV then writing to a newspaper & complaining it won't tow their twin axle caravan all the way to Cornwall ...

HTH
Z

Towing with a vehicle that hasn't been specifically type approved for towing is illegal.

AdrianC

zeupater wrote: »

I thought that the kerb weight issue had been addressed before ....

.. So if a Tesla weighs approximately the same as a Mondeo, it's not a kerb weight specific issue ...

I didn't say it was.

Anyway, if you want to tow a caravan from home to the coast buy a hybrid

Most of which aren't type approved to tow, either.

Some are - now.
http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-hybrid-towing-questions

as for the occasional lightweight trailer for taking hedge clippings or old furniture to the tip, there's likely no issue apart from stopping someone with a vexatious streak buying a leaf sized EV then writing to a newspaper & complaining it won't tow their twin axle caravan all the way to Cornwall ...

Apart from it being illegal to supply and fit a towbar to something that isn't type-approved for towing, and the minor detail that you'd be liable to a roadside tug for being outside the manufacturer's weight limits - so unable to continue your journey until you'd resolved that...

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

I didn't say it was.


Most of which aren't type approved to tow, either.

Some are - now.
http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-hybrid-towing-questions


Apart from it being illegal to supply and fit a towbar to something that isn't type-approved for towing, and the minor detail that you'd be liable to a roadside tug for being outside the manufacturer's weight limits - so unable to continue your journey until you'd resolved that...

Hi

So hybrids aren't type approved, apart from those that are, and some of the ones which haven't been approved haven't been because the manufacturer hasn't submitted them to homologation ...

Odd really, taking the link provided it seems that the larger vehicles in the range, you know, the ones most likely to be chosen as a towing vehicle! are perfectly able to tow ...

.. The Prius and C-HR Hybrid have a recommended towing capacity of 725kg for a braked or unbraked trailer

Both front- and four-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid models have a legal towing capacity of 750kg for unbraked trailers. With regards to braked trailers (where the trailer has its own braking system), the front-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid has a recommended towing capacity of 800kg and the four-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid has a recommended towing capacity of 1,650kg. ..

Now, what about other makes

Mitsubishi Outlander ...

Braked towing capacity kgs1,500

Unbraked towing capacity kgs750

A Volvo

The XC90 T8 combines a powerful and efficient petrol engine with an electric motor. This offers a combined 407 hp and the reassurance of all-wheel drive, while the electric motor's instant torque is particularly useful when manoeuvring at low speeds. Unlike some hybrid vehicles that have a comparatively low towing limit, the T8 also has an impressive maximum braked towing limit of 2,400 kg, which is enough to tow even large loads safely and confidently.

More ... "Lexus RX450h has a kerbweight of 2175kg and a legal towing limit of 2000kg." .... Then again there the Infiniti QX70, VW Golf (1500kg) & Passatt (1600kg) GTE ... shall we go on? ....

... If you want a hybrid car to tow, they're out there, so don't pretend that they aren't ... also, no-one has suggested towing with a vehicle which isn't approved to tow, so please forget the 'smoke & mirrors' & misinformation approach used as an anti-EV tool as it's not clever and it doesn't work!

Talking about towing with hybrids - a 'neighbour' has one and tows both successfully & legally, so unlikely to be 'liable to a roadside tug for being outside the manufacturer's weight limits' ... :cool:

HTH
Z

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Apart from it being illegal to supply and fit a towbar to something that isn't type-approved for towing, and the minor detail that you'd be liable to a roadside tug for being outside the manufacturer's weight limits - so unable to continue your journey until you'd resolved that...

I'm confused. Are you now saying that EV's can't tow, because they haven't been approved for towing .... fine. But what were you on about before when you said that having batts in the floor and being heavier was the reason they can't be used for towing .... why?

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Of course, if we wanted an EV for the sake of owning an EV, we could make it work, just like a square peg can be made to fit into a round hole if you are prepared to recognise a sledge hammer as an acceptable "solution".

Very true. If you try hard enough you can find (or create) a problem. But don't worry, the rest of the world will just move along till you choose to dip a toe in the water, or not.

parking_question_chap

AnotherJoe wrote: »

They are already more cost effective in many cases. Those cases will rise and they will get more cost effective.
You would be Canute except Canute knew what he was doing.

Yes, which will mean greater profit margins.

And what has Freddie Kanoute got to do with electric cars?