MSE News: EE to increase monthly prices by 4.1%
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Does anyone actually have the OFCOM rules regarding RPI increases?
I think it's a bit of a grey area of RPI increases on the original price of the plan and not the actual/discounted price?
I do not but would like to point out that OFCOM rules is not the only thing that matters.
The contract is:
1. Governed by the general law of contract
2. By specific provisions relevant to consumer contracts, including those related to unfair rules
3. Specific rules and regulations applicable to the nature of the business such as OFCOM rules.
In some cases just general law of contract is more fair to the consumers than such disgrace of a regulator as OFCOM. OFCOM rules do not override the protection available to consumers under 1. and 2.0 -
Most of that is nonsense. It won't wash in court or with the Ombudsman. Wishful thinking is worthless, though by all means take it to the Ombudsman. Your "procedure" is also on;y partly correct, in that (in my experience in two cases which were successful withe the Ombudsman - though not this one, is is much less inclined to work in favour of the consumer (lots of experience them too) it is highy you won't actually get a deadlock letter, in which case you can only go to the Ombudsman after 8 weeks from the date of the formal complaint.0
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I find it hard to believe that OFCOM think it fair and reasonable for companies to charge customers an RPI increase on a price the customer never actually pays. The negotiated price that you actually pay should be the price the RPI is based on. The initial contract price on a bill before a discount is just the start of the negotiations, an opening bid, the company know full well the vast majority will not pay it, but it's a start. The final agreed price will be lower, how the company choose to get to that figure is up to them, as a customer, I'm only interested in what I have to pay, not what the company think they can get away with.
I think in all these contracts, they are lacking in the clarity required for a consumer to make a full understanding of the RPI increase, as it is unclear as to which price the RPI is applies to, as such they have failed to supply the relevant information.
5.21.3
If a term could be used to force the consumer to accept unanticipated costs
or penalties, new requirements, or reduced benefits, it is likely to be
considered unfair whether or not it is meant to be used in that way. A
variation clause can upset the legal balance of the contract, even though it
was intended solely to facilitate minor adjustments or corrections, if its
wording means it could be used to impose more substantial changes.
Unfair contract terms guidance CMA37(contracts and markets authority)
5.21.4 The CMA concerns apply particularly to variation clauses in contracts for
a fixed or minimum contractual period. Where a consumer enters a contract
for a defined period (especially if it is short) the natural expectation will be
that the terms of the contract are fixed for that period. A term which,
contrary to such an expectation, allows the business to provide something
that is not in all significant respects what the consumer agreed to buy, or to
charge a higher price than was agreed, is clearly under particular suspicion
of unfairness and may well be blacklisted for the purposes of Part 1 of
the Act.0 -
mobilejunkie wrote: »Most of that is nonsense. It won't wash in court or with the Ombudsman. Wishful thinking is worthless, though by all means take it to the Ombudsman. Your "procedure" is also on;y partly correct, in that (in my experience in two cases which were successful withe the Ombudsman - though not this one, is is much less inclined to work in favour of the consumer (lots of experience them too) it is highy you won't actually get a deadlock letter, in which case you can only go to the Ombudsman after 8 weeks from the date of the formal complaint.
Strongly disagree on the first highlighted statement but will be more polite and will not argue as it would be my opinion vs yours.
On the second it is not your opinion vs mine. It is your opinion vs a fact. And the fact is I got a deadlock letter within a week of the first contact with EE about the matter.0 -
I find it hard to believe that OFCOM think it fair and reasonable for companies to charge customers an RPI increase on a price the customer never actually pays.
I am not sure what OFCOM position is but given all the 0870 numbers issue that took more than a decade to resolve, data roaming etc I would not be surprised.
The good thing it is not just about what OFCOM thinks! General Law of contract including Consumer Rights Act apply as well. If I spend 5 hours studying OFCOM views, at most it will help me with is petty case and similar communications problems. If I spend 5 hours studying Consumer Rights Act and the excellent CMA37 guidance it will serve me many times over a wide range of different issues.
I do not have as much faith in the relevant ombudsmen as I have in courts (though had very excellent experience with a different ombudsmen - Financial Services) but the good thing:
1. It is free to the consumer
2. EE is likely to have to pay a fee for the claim.
So would urge everyone who feels they were not treated fairly to make a complaint to the Onbudsmen5.21.3
If a term could be used to force the consumer to accept unanticipated costs
or penalties, new requirements, or reduced benefits, it is likely to be
considered unfair whether or not it is meant to be used in that way. A
variation clause can upset the legal balance of the contract, even though it
was intended solely to facilitate minor adjustments or corrections, if its
wording means it could be used to impose more substantial changes.
Unfair contract terms guidance CMA37(contracts and markets authority)
Excellent guidance. So for example it is less unfair to someone who entered into contract a year ago but is obscenely unfair to someone who entered into contract less than a month ago as they would be getting a full years' worse of inflation uplift just a month or two after entering into contract. However the effect on the most disadvantaged could e argued even by the least disadvantaged to nullify the unfair terms.5.21.4 The CMA concerns apply particularly to variation clauses in contracts for
a fixed or minimum contractual period. Where a consumer enters a contract
for a defined period (especially if it is short) the natural expectation will be
that the terms of the contract are fixed for that period. A term which,
contrary to such an expectation, allows the business to provide something
that is not in all significant respects what the consumer agreed to buy, or to
charge a higher price than was agreed, is clearly under particular suspicion
of unfairness and may well be blacklisted for the purposes of Part 1 of
the Act.
Extremely relevant and extremely helpful. Thanks a lot!0 -
Here's the pdf link to CMA37CMA37
Extremely relevant and extremely helpful. Thanks a lot!
There are other section in 5.21.xx that may be more relevant, you'll have to read through.
I think this is also very relevant:
5.21.8 (b)
Where the circumstances in which a variation could occur have not
been made sufficiently clear as mentioned in paragraph 5.21.6 above.
Fairness requires that the consumer should be able to foresee and
evaluate the implications of the fact that he or she may at some point have to choose between accepting a variation and abandoning the bargain altogether (see paragraph 5.22.6).
How can a customer foresee the effect of an RPI increase if they don't know the rate of RPI in the future? And, it has not been made sufficiently clear which figure the RPI increase is being applied to. i think OFCOM need to do a bit more work and add a little more clarity.0 -
On the second it is not your opinion vs mine. It is your opinion vs a fact. And the fact is I got a deadlock letter within a week of the first contact with EE about the matter.
You seem to confuse fact with one instance. Just because you received a deadlock letter doesn't mean everyone does. I've had several Ombudsman referrels where I did not and had to wait 8 weeks, which is in fact the way it works.0 -
[QUOTE=mobilejunkie;73923481]Most of that is nonsense. It won't wash in court or with the Ombudsman. Wishful thinking is worthless, ........... it is highy you won't actually get a deadlock letter[/QUOTE]mobilejunkie wrote: »You seem to confuse fact with one instance. Just because you received a deadlock letter doesn't mean everyone does. I've had several Ombudsman referrels where I did not and had to wait 8 weeks, which is in fact the way it works.
You were talking about my chances were you not? If you have a poor track record of getting even a deadlock letter out of the likes of EE then perhaps you should read this forums a bit more thoroughly rather than dispense abuse.
For everyone else I once again advise to either immediately escalate your complaints or try at lower level but if not getting anywhere escalate very quickly to the higher level.
I used the arguments presented in my posts above and escalated to executive.office at ee co uk and had my deadlock in much less than one week from the first contact.... And, sorry, but somehow I do not think I was just very lucky........0 -
"This forums". I can read well enough to cringe at that. Your main thrust was about your case to the Ombudman. Stupid points like they "exaggerated inflation measure RPI instead of CPI" is an example of complete nonsense.0
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mobilejunkie wrote: »"This forums". I can read well enough to cringe at that.
If you have plenty of time to waste you could reread your own posts, some of them have much worse grammatical errors to the extent that it is difficult to understand what it is you are trying to say.
Better still, if you are affected by the price rises and think they were not fair, you can follow my advice. If you do, you might find yourself with a deadlock letter that you have found so difficult to obtain yourself.mobilejunkie wrote: »Your main thrust was about your case to the Ombudman. Stupid points like they "exaggerated inflation measure RPI instead of CPI" is an example of complete nonsense.
You picked the weakest of a large number points. And yet, Bank of England, in particular, uses CPI as the inflation measure to target. So Bank of England uses CPI and EE are using RPI that by design will almost always be considerably higher than CPI.0
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