Claiming against Norwegian Airlines
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Hi all
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this...
Norwegian have cancelled a route that we were booked on and they state that we can either have a refund or they will book us on a replacement flight with another airline. The problem is that we booked their Premium cabin as the flight is a long 12 hours from Lon to Singapore. Their Premium cabin gives 43”-46” of seat pitch and up to 55” of legroom, ‘premium’ food on the flight, 2 checked bags and access to a pre flight lounge. It’s like a lazy boy seat and we had similar on BA’s old business class before they changed to the fully flat bed... and I preferred it.
They’re offering a ‘replacement’ flight with another carrier in a Premium Economy cabin which has 38” seat pitch, single checked bag and no lounge access. The biggest issue for us is the seat and I’ve been on Premium Economy before and it’s not much better than economy and certainly not worth the price which is double economy. When I questioned the differences in seat and service, the lady I spoke to went off and researched it and agreed that the difference is significant BUT she’s not permitted to book us on a business class flight. I asked if we could if we paid extra but they couldn’t do that either. So our choice seems to be take the refund or accept premium economy. We have friends travelling who now won’t go as the seat is an issue for them and they won’t/can’t pay major airline business class fare prices. So they’re going to cancel their trip and lose money as they’ve paid a non refundable deposit for the cruise we’re supposed to be going on.
Anyone know where we stand legally? My argument is we’re not being offered like for like or better. We’re being offered a worse seat/service than before with no recompense or financial adjustment and there seems to be limited flight availability for the time/dates we’re travelling so if we delay, we might be further inconvenienced. Any ideas as to where we stand?0 -
KC_Cantiaci wrote: »Hi all
Anyone know where we stand legally? My argument is we’re not being offered like for like or better. We’re being offered a worse seat/service than before with no recompense or financial adjustment and there seems to be limited flight availability for the time/dates we’re travelling so if we delay, we might be further inconvenienced. Any ideas as to where we stand?
Hi,
The regs say it should be the same class but doesn't break it down as far as comparing how different airlines products compare. There is provision made for upgrading and downgrading, but nothing specific where the same class differs between airlines.
For this reason I think you will struggle to find any part of the regulation to support your situation and may have to resort to a civil case if you feel strongly enough.
I would suggest the best way forwards may be to research which other airline has as close a Premium product to the one you had booked with Norwegian and who also operates on the same route to Singapore. Then negotiate with Premier and ask them to put you on the airline that you would be happy with.
If you could persuade them to put you into a higher class than you booked they cannot then charge you more. Unfortunately I've never heard of this happening.
I'm not sure if Singapore Airlines offer a premium class cabin but they do operate the new A350 into LHR which is very highly thought of, plus their service and food are amongst the best available. It may be worth checking it out.
Good luck.Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.0 -
KC_Cantiaci wrote: »Anyone know where we stand legally?
If they're offering to reroute in the same cabin class on another carrier they've met their obligations.0 -
If they're offering to reroute in the same cabin class on another carrier they've met their obligations.
But it’s not the same. Norwegian call it Premium, not Premium Economy. Some critics and commentators liken it to Business Class. To be honest, it’s somewhere in between but I don’t think it’s fair or reasonable to accept a much worse seat with much less room where sleeping is unlikely. It also means less baggage, no lounge and we’re going to have to travel further to Heathrow instead of Gatwick where it’s going to cost us in time and money as even parking at Heathrow is more expensive. It’s not what I paid for. Our friends are cancelling because of it so it’s had a huge effect on our holiday now.
I spoke to my partners boss today and they were booked on an Upper Class flight with Virgin to Vegas whereby the flight was overbooked. Virgin asked if they would be prepared to travel a day earlier where they would pay for the extra night’s hotel stay and gave them a pair of economy return flights to anywhere in the world as compensation. Yet we’re being offered less than we paid for.0 -
KC_Cantiaci wrote: »Yet we’re being offered less than we paid for.
you have been offered a full refund so you can get your money back and look to book business class elsewhere or accept the premium and look to upgrade yourself in advance or at the airport
If you look at the price deltas between economy, premium economy and business on a full service airline you will generally see a delta similar to Norwegians for economy to premium. the difference to Business is often in the £1,000s0 -
you have been offered a full refund so you can get your money back and look to book business class elsewhere or accept the premium and look to upgrade yourself in advance or at the airport
If you look at the price deltas between economy, premium economy and business on a full service airline you will generally see a delta similar to Norwegians for economy to premium. the difference to Business is often in the £1,000s
Yes...to a point. But we picked these flights because of what you get for the price. If it’s down to price and the price of available economy tickets rises to a similar level, should we only accept what the same money buys when availability is reduced? The reality is that the cost of the flights have gone up since we originally booked so if we take the refund and try and get anything similar, we’ll be out of pocket. Even if we choose to go back to economy (as we wouldn’t pay such prices for Premium Economy as in our opinion, it’s not good value for money), we would be paying more for the flight than we would have when we oringinally booked with Norwegian. So we’d still be out of pocket. Plus, as I said, we’d now have to fly from Heathrow so this incurs additional cost and time to us.
People claim and get compensation for flights delayed by mere hours yet here we are being inconvenienced in multiple ways and whatever way it goes, we’re going to be worse off, yet there is nothing being offered to compensate for this. Compensation is supposed to be a recognition of loss yet here, it’s not being recognised. Norwegian elected to pull the route when there were live bookings attached to it so that should incur a cost for what is a business decision. They could have honoured the bookings and pulled the plug after 9 months before future timetables were announced but didn’t so surely, the least they should offer is the same or better to their affected customers.....certainly not worse.0 -
Unless you were due to travel in the next 14 days there is no compensation under EU261. My post was to point out the discrepancy in comparing a low cost carrier premium seat with a full service business class seat. I doubt they can be forced to buy you a business class seat on another airline. Have you spoken to your travel insurance to see how they can help with your losses?0
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Unless you were due to travel in the next 14 days there is no compensation under EU261. My post was to point out the discrepancy in comparing a low cost carrier premium seat with a full service business class seat. I doubt they can be forced to buy you a business class seat on another airline. Have you spoken to your travel insurance to see how they can help with your losses?
I do understand.... my frustration is more out of the fact that they clearly aren’t going to stretch to a business class seat so we’re likely to end up with a refund and because of the time that has now elapsed, anything we book is going to cost us more than before. So we are going to be worse off no matter what we do yet Norwegian end up bearing non of the responsibility for the situation we’re in created by their decisions. But I think they should as that’s the very definition of compensation and taking responsibility for their actions.
I asked them for a re-route via economy and maybe a future credit of premium class flights to somewhere else of our choosing but the assistant said she can’t do that. So I’ve asked for re-route via economy and a balance refund.....and even then, she’s having to ask if this can be done so I’m waiting yet another day to see what the monetary difference will be. My concern with the delays in getting a decision is the fact that we’re now down to only 2 flights with availability..... the alternatives/choices are getting less and less.0 -
KC_Cantiaci wrote: »But it’s not the same. Norwegian call it Premium, not Premium Economy. Some critics and commentators liken it to Business Class. To be honest, it’s somewhere in between
The actual product may be somewhere between premium economy (on some airlines) and business class but it's sold as an economy cabin and attracts the reduced APD rate (unlike business class seats). I understand the frustration but legally there's not anything you can do as far as I can see.0 -
Hello,
I wish I had found this forum before I started this process. I wrote to Norwegian Customer Service instead of using their online claim process as I had booked a trip for my family but there were 3 different bookings for the 6 of us. We had different trips to CPH but we all were to travel back to the US on the same flight. Forgive me as this is long but I am going to post my original letter to them and the subsequent responses because there are a lot of extenuating circumstances. I am looking for guidance.
Dear Sir/Madam:
We purchased 6 tickets from your airline to visit my husband’s family in Denmark. Our return trip was slated for 8.8.18 – Flight DY7011 - departing CPH at 19:10 and arriving at JFK at 21:30. All 6 travelers - confirmation #’s KXUJ3V, NBUNWO, N9VL4K - were booked in Premium Class for this flight.
At 8:40 on 8.8.18 we were on a flight from Bornholm to CPH with Danish Air Transport. We received a text that our Norwegian flight from CPH – JFK was canceled while getting ready to depart. The reason stated was due to weather at JFK/lightning strike on arrival on previous sector.
After landing in CPH my husband called the number on the text to try to rebook our flights. We were told that Norwegian did not have any other direct flights to JFK either Wed. 8.8.18 or Thurs. 8.9.18 from CPH. We were told we could take a 16:10 to LGW and then a 21:05 to JFK on 8.8.18. But, whoever was doing the rebooking did not reserve the tickets while working on them. By time she got to the 6th person, that ticket was gone and we had to start over.
The next choice still involved us going to LGW at 16:10 on 8.8.18 but we would not leave for JFK until 8.9.18. When these tickets were booked, we noticed they were booked for 12:10 from CPH rather than 16:10. We got the confirmation e-mail at 11:00 so it was a mad scramble to print our boarding passes, check all of our bags and get through passport control and security. Luckily the plane was late getting in and fueled so we made it, but it was highly stressful.
Also, because of mandatory checks required by European Aviation authorities, Norwegian was forced to lease another aircraft to avoid cancellations for the flight on 8.9.18. According to a Norwegian Airline rep, the A380 could not go into JFK until after midnight due to size restrictions. So our 17:50 flight was further delayed to depart at 21:05 on 8.9.18 and arrive at 00:05 on 8.10.18.
We had more than a 24-hour delay and needed to secure accommodations. We stayed at the Doubletree Hotel in London. My husband is a pilot and was able to secure a government rate with breakfast. However, because of the group that we had, we had to book 4 rooms.
- My 81-year old father in a room with a single bed
- My husband and I in a room with a double bed
- My 28-year old and 12-year old sons in a room with 2 twin beds
- My 22-year old son in a room with a single bed
With a checkout time of noon we required 2 nights in a hotel. But we booked all rooms for 1 night only and had a late checkout for 1 room in order to store our bags until we headed back to the airport that evening.
Our reimbursable expenses include the following:
- Coffee at CPH Airport 8.8.18 - 55.20 DKK (receipt attached)
- Train for 6 people for 2 days - £117 (receipt attached)
- Hotel and breakfast for 6 people - £884.40 (receipt attached)
- Dinner for 5 people at Jamie’s Italian 8.8.18 - £85.45 (receipt attached)
- Lunch for 6 people at The George 8.9.18 - £92 (receipt lost)
- Extra day of parking at JFK Airport - $20.00 (receipt attached)
- International Telephone Calls to rebook flights - $13.20 (receipt attached)
Beside what we actually spent out-of-pocket, the following was also affected/lost because of this delay. We live in upstate NY and that is about a 3-hour drive from JFK airport. We did not get home until 5 am on 8.10.18 as opposed to when we should have gotten home - around midnight on 8.8.18:
- 22-year old son missed work on 8.9.18 and 8.10.18
- 28-year old son missed work on 8.9.18 and had to take a vacation day he had earmarked for another time
- 12-year old son missed his oncology clinic appointment on 8.9.18 at 13:00
- 12-year old son had free tickets for the family to The Great Escape on 8.10.18 through the EnCourage Kids Foundation (due to his cancer diagnosis). We were unable to use as we would have had to leave our home at 9:00 and only just got there at 5:00. To purchase tickets for the following Friday it will cost us $233.79 (backup attached)
- We had to take 2 flights rather than 1 direct flight. Beside the inconvenience, the 2-hour flight to LGW was not Premium which is what we paid for.
Based on everything above, I believe we are entitled to the following:
- €600 compensation per ticket x 6 = €3600 or $4112.10 USD (or current exchange rate) under EC 261/2004 regulations. This cancellation/delay meets the criteria for both length of delay and length of flight. A lightning strike affecting a previous flight is also not considered an extraordinary circumstance which would prevent compensation.
- £1234.05 for transportation, hotel, meals or $1575.75 USD (or current exchange rate)
- $33.20 for additional parking and telephone calls
TOTAL - $5721.05 USD
There are also a number of things outlined in my last paragraph, which were affected but not easily quantifiable. My sons cannot get back their missed days of work, vacation days or a theme park excursion. It is also hard to quantify the difference between a lowfare ticket for the 2-hour leg as opposed to the 8-hour trip that was to be premium the entire way. I believe we are due some sort of compensation for this as well.
Thank you for your consideration. If you require any further documentation for this claim please let me know.
______________________________________________________________________________
Their response a month later:
Thank you for contacting us again. We are sorry for the time it's taken to respond and we thank you for your patience.
Unfortunately, Norwegian flight DY7011 (CPH-JFK) 08.08.2018 was cancelled. This disruption was caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
______________________________
Flight Disruption Information
Norwegian flight: DY7011 (CPH-JFK) 08.08.2018
Disruption type: Cancelled
Reason for disruption: This cancellation was caused by an earlier disruption within our network that had a direct effect on this flight. The original flight was disrupted due to a lighting strike.
______________________________
Although we respect your request for compensation, we’re unable to honour your claim as your flight was cancelled due to an event, which constitutes extraordinary circumstances.
In most cases, passengers will be entitled to compensation in the event that the disruption is caused by a technical defect. This is in accordance with the European Court of Justice ruling in the case of van der Lans (C-257/14) which states that technical difficulties resulting in the replacement of a defective component on the aircraft may be within the carrier’s control and entitle the passenger to compensation.
Nevertheless, according to this verdict, certain technical problems may constitute extraordinary circumstances and exempt the carrier from its’ liability of compensation. This would apply in cases where the aircraft is released from inspection without the presence of a technical defect or any need to change a faulty component, as well as technical problems that affect flight safety, such as hidden manufacturing defects, and/or damage to the aircraft caused by acts of sabotage or terrorism.
We are very sorry for any negative effect this disruption had on your travel plans. It is never our intention to disappoint or upset our passengers when choosing to travel with us.
This was an unexpected situation which was entirely out of our control and we can assure you that we did the best we could, under the circumstances, to rebook our passengers and get them to their destination as soon as possible.
We empathise that these kind of situations are frustrating and apologise for any distress caused to you or your family.
On this occasion, we'd be happy to reimburse the following costs:
- Food: 177.45 GBP, 55.2 DKK,
- Hotel: 884.4 GBP,
- Communication: 13.2 USD,
- Transfers: 177.7 GBP,
Unfortunately, we're unable to cover the other expenses claimed as we're not liable for such costs. For information regarding the legal basis for the reimbursement of financial losses in the event of a flight disruption, please see below*.
In order to settle your claim, we require the following information to arrange an international bank transfer:
• Bank name
• Account holder’s name and postal address
• Account number
• IBAN number or ABA/routing number (electronic payments) for U.S accounts
• BIC/Swift code
You can send us these details by responding to this e-mail. If you don’t have access to this information, please contact your bank.
We look forward to your response and assure you that your claim will be finalised once all of the necessary information is received.
Kind regards,
Nancy T.
The Customer Relations Team
________________________________________________________________________________
My response:
Hello Nancy,
Thank you for your response.
Could you please explain what you mean by lightning strike? Did lightning actually strike the aircraft when arriving or while on the tarmac the evening of Tuesday 8.7.18? There are no records of such an incident. Could you please provide? Please also provide information on the technical defect caused by the lightning strike to the aircraft in question. According to FlightAware, the B788 from CPH landed in JFK at 9:59 pm that night and by all other accounts without incident.
From what I can tell, Norwegian only has one direct flight on Tuesdays for the JFK/CPH route. That flight leaves CPH at 7:10 pm arriving at JFK at 9:30 pm and then departs JFK for CPH at 11:30 pm. If lightning didn't actually strike the aircraft then why didn't Norwegian just delay the flight rather than cancelling it? The airport did not close down and several short and long-haul flights departed JFK a couple hours later. The aircraft could have reached CPH in time to do a turnaround to JFK on 8.8.18 at the originally scheduled time even with the delay. If lightning did strike the aircraft, that still left Norwegian with over 12 hours to arrange for another aircraft to take its place.
Even if the flight originating from JFK could not be delayed, the cause for the cancellation does not fall under "extraordinary circumstances" and many recent legal cases support this. In Frederique Jager vs easyJet the judge ruled that adverse weather for a previous flight did not fall under an airlines defense of extraordinary circumstances for subsequent flight delays. In Evans vs Monarch the court held that passengers whose flights were delayed by reason of lightning strikes were entitled compensation. Lightning strikes are inherent in the normal exercise of an air carriers daily activity and not considered extraordinary. Also under Wallentin-Hermann vs Alitalia an ECJ defined the "all reasonable measures" that an airline must take to prevent delay, even from extraordinary circumstances, as everything short of "intolerable sacrifice".
But what also must be taken into account is the fact that the person rebooking our cancelled flight from LGW - JFK did not hold all of the tickets for our party as she was working on them. By the time she got to the 6th person that ticket was gone and we could no longer take that flight. It is noted on all travel receipts with the exception of one that we were rebooked for DI7015 LGW - JFK at 21:05. Had she reserved the 6 tickets while entering the information, we would have been on a flight the evening of 8.8.18 and only arrived home a few hours later than our original flight from CPH.
But our disruption was not just a few hours and not just a slight inconvenience. It forced us to travel to another country and delayed us for over 24 hours. Under EC 261/2004 regulations we are due not only the reimbursement for our expenses because of this delay but also €600 in compensation per delayed passenger in our party for a total of €3600. There were also consequential losses which were a direct result of this cancellation. The airline has not demonstrated satisfactorily a reason not to pay the compensation I am due. Please provide the information I have requested above so I may determine whether to escalate my claim. Thank you.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Their response:
Thank you for contacting us again.
We kindly inform you that we are unable to prepare detailed reports of each case to our passengers and, unfortunately, cannot send the requested documentation. If you do decide to take this case to a National Enforcement Body then we must send this documentation to them.
On this occasion, we'd be happy to reimburse the following costs:
- Food: 177.45 GBP, 55.2 DKK,
- Hotel: 884.4 GBP,
- Communication: 13.2 USD,
- Transfers: 177.7 GBP,
Unfortunately, we're unable to cover the other expenses claimed as we're not liable for such costs. For information regarding the legal basis for the reimbursement of financial losses in the event of a flight disruption, please see below*.
In order to settle your claim, we require the following information to arrange an international bank transfer:
• Bank name
• Account holder’s name and postal address
• Account number
• IBAN number or ABA/routing number (electronic payments) for U.S accounts
• BIC/Swift code
You can send us these details by responding to this e-mail. If you don’t have access to this information, please contact your bank.
We look forward to your response and assure you that your claim will be finalised once all of the necessary information is received.
Best regards,
Nancy T.
Customer Relations
Norwegian
How can they claim that the situation was an extraordinary circumstance and then refuse to prove it and unilaterally just say no to compensation? I did go on one of the websites and enter my flight information but was told they don't have jurisdiction to handle my claim but believed I was due compensation.
Also does this really fall under extraordinary circumstances when we were basically almost rebooked for a flight the same night but it was botched by the person doing the rebooking? What angle should I concentrate on in going after this?
Also, can I send her the bank information for my reimbursement for out of pocket costs? This they legally owe me and say they will pay. I just want to make sure they do not think that means I accept their decision about the compensation and incidental losses. Can this be done separately or do I take a risk?
I would appreciate some guidance. I did download Vauban's guide and can refer to that. I am assuming I should issue an NBA letter next. Thank you for anyone that took the time to read all this!0
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