Electric cars
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I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples here...Compare the weight of the mk 1 Insight, about 850 kg, with a Volvo V60 diesel plus electric plug-in hybrid, about 1800 kg, and you might start to get a hint of what I'm driving at.
The original Insight was deliberately designed to be a radical, hyper-efficient, very lightweight, very aerodynamic, small, niche car.
The V60 is a medium-sized tank in comparison. The non-hybrid V60 diesel is damn near 1,700kg. It's much bigger, and a basically very conservative design (as you'd expect from Volvo).
Yes, but that's what "ordinary cars" are these days, hybridisation or not. A "straight" Focus diesel is damn near a ton and a half. A Fiesta's 1,200kg. <points blamey finger at EuroNCAP and brochurebingo obsessions>Some manufacturers are producing devices with nearly 200 + 100 bhp, and the weight is heading to between 1.5 and 2 tons, which is bloated in both power and weight and surpasses what most of us modestly need to see from an ordinary car.0 -
HiMartyn1981 wrote: »I think I'm with you. The early efficiency based hybrids did a great job of offering an alternative to diesels, but more importantly they proved the kit (motors and batts) which IMO probably helped greatly with consumer confidence in BEV's. And the plug-in Prius really got me thinking about what could be achieved by many whose trip to work and back could be covered by the range.
I was rather disappointed to see the rollout of huge SUV's with mild hybridization, and vast price tags. That looked more like greenwash and corporate fuel average manipulation.
I suspect hybrids will be an evolutionary dead end (apart from some range extender models for margin cases) but have been an essential part of the BEV story.
I understand what your thought process is, but have an alternative view ... well, considering that we have the Prius in question we would, wouldn't we!
So, what are the main problems with the PiP? ... well that's simple - range in EV mode and availability of charging points (which is important due to the battery capacity!) ... but, and this is ultra important! ... if a decent proportion of the mileage is within the vehicle's between charge range they effectively become irrelevant ... 10 miles/day mainly on EV would likely suit the majority of users, make it 20 with workplace/destination charging becomes even better .... the latest models just about double the range of our's so even better for the average journey ... it's comparatively rare that we do more than 25 miles/day, so wonder why all plug-in hybrids would be required to have a 50 mile EV range, especially so as charging infrastructure becomes more accessible ...
The way I see it is that if people are looking to buy a vehicle with (say) a 300-500 mile range for the odd long journey then they'll be paying through the nose for capacity that they'll not need for the majority of the time as well as hogging storage resource which could be utilised elsewhere ... this is really important when looking at the speed of initial EV roll-out in a market where the battery supply-chain has volume constraints ... if someone is happy to have a vehicle which is mainly used to 'tootle' about in or needs to convey an 'environmental' presence while covering considerable distances on a regular basis then I see no reason why pure EVs aren't the answer ... for those with a 'need' to have an EV without the range anxiety (at least in the early days) then the plug-in hybrid is the obvious logical solution, although heavily frowned upon by the purist environmentalism lobby ...
... what's better? ... all vehicles hybrid sooner, or all vehicles EV much later ... it's a simple storage supply & demand quandary that seems to be overlooked ... if 1 decent range pure EV consumes the resource of (say) 10 hybrids, but the majority of miles in EV mode in those hybrids is in EV mode, isn't the carbon emission balancing act firmly in favour of the hybrid -or- should we be purist & just wait longer for the same outcome?
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Absolutely!RichardD1970 wrote: »Is that really relevant on this type of car?
>150 miles in a day is not hard at all just pootling and playing, even before you consider taking it on a Euro tour, or to a Jag club meet the other side of the country, where you'll be parked in a field alongside several hundred other cars - or an order of magnitude more other classics.
Look at the classic parking at somewhere like Goodwood.0 -
paying through the nose for capacity that they'll not need for the majority of the time as well as hogging storage resource which could be utilised elsewhere ... this is really important when looking at the speed of initial EV roll-out in a market where the battery supply-chain has volume constraints ..
You've preempted a point I was going to make. To give an example, the new version of the Hyundai Ioniq (and Kona) have serious supply constraints due to, it would appear, a shortage of batteries. Do you (simplistically) therefore build x number of electric vehicles or 2x plug in hybrids. More miles would then be done using electric in urban contexts even if ICEs would need to be used at certain times.
By and large the market for EVs is still company cars and the better off pensioners, but once a more consistent and larger supply of S/H 2 or 3 year old ex contract cars start to emerge is when the market will really take off.
I'm still waiting.
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And what's the refill time for each...?
Petrols a few minutes of standing holding it, for about £60.
I'm not sure how fast the electric one will charge, but it'll cost pennies (if it costs anything) and you don't need to stand waiting on it.
Taking 10-15 minutes extra every 2 hours shouldn't be a problem. Grab a coffee, enjoy life. No-one driving one of these things is going to be in a huge rush to get anywhere.
Another point to consider is congestion charge - would this conversion make it exempt?0 -
HiAbsolutely!
>150 miles in a day is not hard at all just pootling and playing, even before you consider taking it on a Euro tour, or to a Jag club meet the other side of the country, where you'll be parked in a field alongside several hundred other cars - or an order of magnitude more other classics.
Look at the classic parking at somewhere like Goodwood.
I take it you've not had a classic car then? .....
Take for example an E-type ... between mid 40's and almost 60 years old, but most I've come across have averaged below 2000 miles/year! ... that doesn't really describe too many journeys at 150 miles to me ...
The S1.5 FHC mentioned earlier was in excellent condition (US dry climate car with very low mileage) that it was a pain to keep looking great so it moved-on to someone who wanted something to polish and keep as an investment ... the others were used, but all were on limited mileage insurance to keep ownership costs down and only came out on dry/sunny days because we detest washing cars more than a couple of times a year! ... I can't recall any journey in any of the XKs that came to over 200 miles (even though you could just about get 300 miles/tank if careful), most being 30 or less, which talking to others at the time would seem to be typical for a classic car run on a nice day ...
I'd conclude, from experience, that a 170 mile range provided by an electric conversion to their classic cars would suit most owners.
In passing, I recently mentioned the possibility of an electric conversion to our 'next-door' neighbours who still have a nice MK X in storage and they'd be quite interested if it was to be offered in a DIY kit form at a 'reasonable' cost and soonish ... now that's a car where the mpg (12ish) is a real usage killer, but the conversion cost justification would need to be set against a much lower vehicle value ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
I must admit that an electric conversion for my old Land Rover interests me. This type of conversion seems to be more popular in the the US. I've seen classic cars ranging from VW campers through to Mustangs converted to electric power. Most seem to be very short range though and some retain the original gearbox.
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Hi
... what's better? ... all vehicles hybrid sooner, or all vehicles EV much later ... it's a simple storage supply & demand quandary that seems to be overlooked ... if 1 decent range pure EV consumes the resource of (say) 10 hybrids, but the majority of miles in EV mode in those hybrids is in EV mode, isn't the carbon emission balancing act firmly in favour of the hybrid -or- should we be purist & just wait longer for the same outcome?
HTH
Z
Absolutely, I totally agree about PHEV's especially if they replace an ICE when longer journeys are a necessity, and if the EV range can cover work travel. I just think that given the cost of running reports that show they are a bit more expensive than an ICE (whereas BEV's are cheaper), that they aren't a long term solution.
But that's fine, helping with a transition to BEV's by testing the kit, and introducing folk to EV mode is great.
I don't think BEV's would be anywhere close to where they are today without the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, but in the long term, possibly medium term, I suspect PHEV's will fade (as will ICE) as BEV's get better and better.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0
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