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  • FIRST POST
    • PMSG
    • By PMSG 25th Oct 19, 5:37 PM
    • 14Posts
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    PMSG
    Storage Heaters
    • #1
    • 25th Oct 19, 5:37 PM
    Storage Heaters 25th Oct 19 at 5:37 PM
    My sister has moved onto an all electric retirement apartment with storage heaters. This is all new to me. I am finding it impossible to get help about choosing a tariff (or even a meter) to best control her electricity bills. The problem I have encountered is that many sources of help (eg. Uswitch) don't cover Economy 10 tariffs. Where can I go to get help about whether Economy 10, Economy 7 or flat rate metering will be best for my sister? How can I be sure that selecting a meter will not prevent her switching in future?
Page 1
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 25th Oct 19, 5:57 PM
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    matelodave
    • #2
    • 25th Oct 19, 5:57 PM
    • #2
    • 25th Oct 19, 5:57 PM
    What has she got at the moment - she will have to sign up and create an account with the existing supplier before she can change so it might be worth while giving it a short while to see how it goes.

    Most supplier will offer an E7 tariff, E10 is harder to find and usually more expensive, so you may need to put a bit more effort into finding one.

    It's not easy to guess how much energy she'll use over a year so use a compariosn site and use several estimates, say 7500, 10,000, 12500 and 15000kwh with something like a 30% and 40% offpeak/peak consumption. Thats possibly eight iterations (more if you use E10 and E7 tariffs) but it should give you some idea of her costs. You can then choose a tariff that looks like it will suit and then monitor her consumption to check
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 25th Oct 19, 6:05 PM
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    Gerry1
    • #3
    • 25th Oct 19, 6:05 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Oct 19, 6:05 PM
    Sadly it was a very bad decision to go for all-electric property: it will cost an arm and a leg because off-peak electricity is about three times as expensive as gas, and peak about five.

    Economy 10 is more bad news because it will probably be phased out quite soon, and there's little or no competition anyway, as you've discovered.

    If it's a purchased property, gas is available and finances permit it then a wet gas central heating system would probably be the best bet. Much of the cost would be recovered because the property would be much more attractive and sell more quickly.

    If not, you'll probably end up with E7 sooner or later depending on whether you jump or are pushed. Unfortunately, as they're on E10 it's likely that the heaters are old style boxes of bricks that aren't well insulated and are low capacity; on E7 they are likely to be too cool by late evening.

    You could always try finding out the E7 times in your area (dial 105), waiting until the weather is really cold, turning the input control right up, the output control low (except late in the day), and manually switching the radiators off outside the E7 cheap rate times. If the results are acceptable then you could just switch to E7 (make sure the automatic switching hours are also changed). But be careful, once you've moved to E7 there's no going back !

    If, as is probable, the old heaters are not happy with E7 hours then your best bet would be clever storage heaters such as Dimplex Quantum, provided that they are correctly dimensioned and programmed. They are more efficient because they waste less heat when it's not needed at night and have a fan to boost the output late in the afternoon and evening. If all else fails then you can top them up (sparingly !) with full price electricity.

    Start giving meter readings straight away, otherwise the DD may rocket if she hasn't been paying her way. If she's also on a deemed tariff that will be mega-expensive, so act fast.
    Last edited by Gerry1; 25-10-2019 at 6:58 PM.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 25th Oct 19, 7:00 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    • #4
    • 25th Oct 19, 7:00 PM
    • #4
    • 25th Oct 19, 7:00 PM
    all electric retirement apartment
    - could be anything
    - most are flats
    - gas not usually an option
    Economy 10 tariffs
    - agree E10 is non-competition and highest
    - E7 best option
    Dimplex Quantum
    - lifelong defender of quantum
    - not really needed
    - if existing ones work ok
    likely to be too cool by late evening
    - only if its badly sized
    solution
    - badly designed sizing is usual by neglect
    - simple .. .. extend ring an put extra 3.4 kw in living area
    - job done

    - I'm not a fan of fan, even Dimplex. Use biggest and fill it to your needs.
    - fan usually blows on demand high price energy.
    - I'm not a fan of dampers - should be welded shut.
    - 50 years actual use in 3 different dwellings experience.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 25th Oct 19, 7:19 PM
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    Gerry1
    • #5
    • 25th Oct 19, 7:19 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Oct 19, 7:19 PM
    - fan usually blows on demand high price energy.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    The instructions suggest that it normally uses only off peak energy (apart from the fan itself, which will use a negligible amount), and it only uses expensive peak electricity if Boost is selected.
    Last edited by Gerry1; 25-10-2019 at 7:21 PM.
    • PMSG
    • By PMSG 25th Oct 19, 8:36 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PMSG
    • #6
    • 25th Oct 19, 8:36 PM
    • #6
    • 25th Oct 19, 8:36 PM
    Thanks for helpful replies.

    More background;

    - it is a McCarthy and Stone retirement flat - gas is not an option.
    - currently has a Economy 10 meter with three readings and two MPANs
    - she is currently on standard variable tariff as her supplier E.ON withdrew its tariff and said she had to have a new meter - she did nothing about this not realising its significance
    - whilst storage heaters are old I am not inclined to replace them
    - seems like choice is between Economy 7 or Economy 10 - with all posters preferring 7
    - however she will need a new meter. How can I be sure the Economy 7 meter she is given will be switchable between suppliers?
    - if she switches to Economy 7, I assume her storage heaters and immersion heater will need their timers changing? Does this require professional help?

    Thanks for your help - this feels like swimming in treacle.
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 25th Oct 19, 10:39 PM
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    Gerry1
    • #7
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:39 PM
    • #7
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:39 PM
    No doubt Malc will be able to give full details next week, but I fear the choice is between Economy 7 and bankruptcy ! Once you've left E.On's E10 tariff there's no going back, and it's at best doubtful whether anyone else will offer it to a new customer. So right now she's paying a fortune (i) because it's a standard tariff rather than a deal, and (ii) because it's peak rate 24/7.

    With an E7 meter you'll be able to switch to any E7 supplier. However, you may need to call an electrician to arrange that the storage heater circuit is only live during the E7 night rate periods.

    Ideally there should be two immersion heaters, one on the switched (night) circuit for normal use and one on the permanent circuit that can be switched on if the water goes cold in the day. If there's only one immersion heater, make sure it's on the permanent circuit. It needs to have a local timer; make sure it's adequately rated and is not the mechanical type without battery backup that will switch at the wrong times after a power cut.

    As she won't yet know her annual consumption it may be better to start off on an E7 tariff without onerous exit penalties. Also, think about the Priority Services Register and Warm Home Discount, if applicable.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 25th Oct 19, 10:41 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    • #8
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:41 PM
    • #8
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:41 PM
    - it'll take scores of years to get the investment in quantum back
    - cans can be refurbished by anyone with correct (Screwfix) paint cheaply
    - all "deemed" supply is their default most expensive
    - switch to cheaper supplier with pre-agreed meter change
    - e7=7 hours cheaper E10=10 hours cheaper
    - the 7 hours are auto-switched on/off by the (area code) distributor
    - so almost certainly no changes to anything

    Knowledge

    The higher the % of night use [I'm 60% night 40% day] the cheapest. I'd almost certainly install an additional big can. You will almost certainly need an on demand source of daytime / caught short heat. I've never used a damper open setting in all my years - I treat it as like a wallet put enough kW hours in storage @ 30% cheaper price for your needs.

    CAC÷12=monthly payment plan, it'll never be in arrears and overpaying summer is in credit before the winter. Heat living room to comfortable °C and that's the 'best fit' for needs. 12 months of piping hot water and comfortable heating. Best of luck.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 25th Oct 19, 11:35 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    • #9
    • 25th Oct 19, 11:35 PM
    • #9
    • 25th Oct 19, 11:35 PM
    Change a smaller one for a 16 bricker and it will be capable of about 24.0kWh maximum input flat out over 7 hours and it will deliver 3.5kW per hour.

    Fit (easy to wire an extra spur) any additional of any size and get the extra cheaper electricity "banked" kW needs supply needed. My existing ones are 31 years old, I have considered replacing with Quantum but I am 75 and this is MSE (grin)
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 25th Oct 19, 11:40 PM
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    Gerry1
    it will deliver 3.5kW per hour.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    From a supply at 50Hz per second?
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 26th Oct 19, 12:05 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    from a supply at 50hz per second? :d
    Originally posted by gerry1
    dup .. .. .. ..
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • PMSG
    • By PMSG 26th Oct 19, 3:46 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PMSG
    Gerry1 you state

    "Once you've left E.On's E10 tariff there's no going back, and it's at best doubtful whether anyone else will offer it to a new customer."

    My sister was forced off the Economy 10 tariff by EON in July 2017 when they stated it was going to be withdrawn. Your reply seems to imply Economy 10 is still available to existing EON customers in which case shouldn't she be allowed to revert to that tariff as she was taken off it under false pretences?
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 26th Oct 19, 3:51 PM
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    Gerry1
    You'd have to ask Malc: I'm not connected with E.On in any way and can't speak on their behalf.
    Last edited by Gerry1; 26-10-2019 at 3:59 PM.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 26th Oct 19, 3:51 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Many of these trad exotic systems have been rewired from 2 to 1 circuit (old spinning disk fused board to new digital meter dropper standards. But not ALL

    EDF's MPAN (E10) 3 register meters in the Eastern area code for example are 4 afternoon 2 evening and 7 hours overnight.

    Yes it's possible you might be on a separate circuit, a sparky should be able to tell in minutes.

    See area code map.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • PMSG
    • By PMSG 26th Oct 19, 4:11 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PMSG
    But as far as you know, EON still have customers on an ECONOMY 10 tariff? I have seen something on another online forum which suggests that they do.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 26th Oct 19, 4:13 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    My age is well known to swan-knekkers on this board and whilst I would never have E10 some existing E10 AP's used to this benefit might find it difficult to lose it. We all know it's a cartel but some offspring might decide to continue its price for the benefit of the cold AP.

    TOU should have already been in use a decade ago. Instead of threat and manipulation to get smarts in. Install real proven working smart meters. We're a decade behind on battery cars ditto TOU. Example - 4-7 afternoon we generate almost cost free from wind and can't use it.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 26th Oct 19, 4:21 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    But as far as you know, EON still have customers on an ECONOMY 10 tariff? I have seen something on another online forum which suggests that they do.
    Originally posted by PMSG
    Yes and E9, cyclo, heatwise etc. It's been well known all want well rid. I'm even handed and strive to post my truth, but it's just my truth other people and other truths exist.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • PMSG
    • By PMSG 26th Oct 19, 5:02 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PMSG
    You'd have to ask Malc: I'm not connected with E.On in any way and can't speak on their behalf.
    Originally posted by Gerry1
    Thanks - I'll look forward to Malc's comments on Monday then
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 26th Oct 19, 5:09 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    E7 has only one cheap[er] rate, at night. TOU is able to offer consumers several different rates. The nay-sayers have predicted for 20 years the demise of this old coal fired generating tariff - still waiting.

    Europe as always in in the hands of the bankers and big business who have no interest is lowering domestic consumer electricity by 20p per kW but iif GOV's mandate dynamic power pricing instead of threats and tricks with SMETS1 the SMETS 3 could be developed and trialled in months. Businesses and large industrial users are shut at the weekend and 4-7 pm on weekdays there is a glut of unused already generated sun/wind energy.

    I'm not remotely interested in smart household or the tax them to death 'green' industry or industrial processes / car charging / rent a roof, just getting TOU/SMETS working effectively for he domestic consumer by a reduction of 20pUK per kW use, mostly because of poor incentives for domestic users.

    I think I made my first post on TOU here over a decade ago, zero has happened since!
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 26th Oct 19, 5:47 PM
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    Gerry1
    4-7 pm on weekdays there is a glut of unused already generated sun/wind energy.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    So that's why Bulb's TOU tariff charges up to 41.94p/kWh between these times?

    I'm not remotely interested in smart household or the tax them to death 'green' industry or industrial processes / car charging / rent a roof, just getting TOU/SMETS working effectively for the domestic consumer by a reduction of 20pUK per kW use, mostly because of poor incentives for domestic users.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    Bulb's surcharge of 25/kWh is a certainly a poor incentive ! Perhaps all the windfarms have been wired in reverse, and the generators are acting as motors driving huge fans? That would certainly explain the gales we're having !
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