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Electric cars

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  • silverwhistle
    silverwhistle Posts: 4,003 Forumite
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    What I object to is unsubstantiated hype. No more than that.


    Hmm, whether it's my comprehension skills or your writing skills, I have to say that you consistently write negative posts about EVs (in general), and in no way would I say that you come over as unbiaised. If you have ever written anything positive about EVs I apologise, but that's certainly not my impression and I'm definitely not going back to check!
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Perhaps that's simply because the vast majority of what's written here about EVs is unsubstantiated - or, rather, uncritical - hype?

    So, let me reiterate, again...

    EVs are not quite (but it's close) ready to replace ICVs yet, for many people's primary-use vehicles. Charging infrastructure is the showstopper, and there is no easy way to sort that. For secondary vehicles, yes, they are absolutely viable - but they tend to be very low use anyway, so there's little emissions gain to be made - and that capability was already filled a couple of decades ago, but the market was not willing to make the compromises, and costs were too heavy.

    They are nowhere near ready for heavy-use vehicles, which is where the majority of fuel is burnt, and the majority of emissions are produced.


    Where EVs make most sense, in the urban environment, is where private cars - regardless of fuel type - make least sense, because public transport is the sustainable answer.

    Tesla are closest to having the range sorted, but only because they are quite lazily happy to lob a metric shedload of the exact same generic cells as everybody else at each and every vehicle, simply because they've opted out of having to fulfill the same price expectations as everybody else, with massive compromises and quality shortcuts that would not be possible for "traditional" competitors. Their current niche allows them the bubble to get away with that, but that cannot last, and they are undoubtedly already finding the transition to the real world very, very difficult. They simply cannot continue to hype their way out of it, and short-to-medium-term survival in their current form is very unlikely, imho. Nobody has ever vapourwared their way out of trouble.

    When EVs do break out of their niche, the current artificial cost advantage will VERY quickly be negated - and that will likely be through the inevitability of variable road pricing. Plug-in hybrids will be the route out of that niche, and are on the cusp of making that breakthrough - when we look back, the Outlander PHEV will be seen as the first truly mainstream choice, despite the utter ridiculousness of the whole SUV mania.

    Then there's two things which have often been conflated with EVs in this thread and elsewhere - but are actually completely unrelated.

    Autonomy is a very, very long way from reality, simply through the utter complexity of edge cases, but mainly through product liability questions. The marketing of the current relatively low-level driver assistance tools as something bordering on autonomy is close to being criminal negligence, imho, and I think we're going to see a very big, messy and expensive lawsuit in the near future - which will probably wind consumer-available tech back a notch or two.

    The other one, often wrapped in with autonomy, is Transport-as-a-Service - which has been a commercially-successful urban reality for decades. But taking it out to extra-urban, especially rural, environments faces massive (probably insurmountable) scalability challenges.

    You'll notice that I've explicitly flagged a couple of things in that as "imho". That's because they are the only ones which are opinion. The rest is simple reality, whether everybody here wishes to acknowledge them or not, especially the acolytes at the temple of St Elon...
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,390 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 19 June 2018 at 11:40PM
    AdrianC wrote: »
    .... heavy-use vehicles, which is where the majority of fuel is burnt, and the majority of emissions are produced ...
    Hi

    I'd love to see that claim substantiated and supported, so to get the ball rolling let's look at the above-stated hypothesis in a logical manner ....

    Vehicles use fuel, some vehicles use more fuel than others because they're either less efficient due to relative size, or they travel a greater distance on average ... but there are averages to work on ...

    In theory there's a sweet spot where the mechanics & combustion deliver at the top of a speed related efficiency curve - above and below this point efficiency is lower, but normally the speed at which higher efficiency (mpg) is achieved is closer to national speed limits than low speed urban driving ... see any issue with the claim yet? ... :think:

    Okay then, for those who either don't follow or refuse to accept the premise ... within any particular vehicle size, type or loading classification, 'heavy use' must be related to mileage as compared to average mileage, therefore they're likely to be travelling further and at higher speeds than lighter use vehicles travelling mainly in low average speed urban areas where the mpg is low ..... logically, if higher mileage vehicles are more efficient per mile travelled than those with average mileage, then vehicles with lower than average mileage should have lower efficiencies, the conclusion being that they (lower mileage vehicles) would be burning more fuel per mile travelled, totally discrediting the statement .... 'heavy-use vehicles, which is where the majority of fuel is burnt, and the majority of emissions are produced' ...

    It's a matter of extremes, but the high mileage vehicles simply raise the average mileage, therefore the subset containing lower mileage/less efficient vehicles which achieve below average mileage simply becomes larger ... for any vehicles class, it must be the 'lower than average mileage' subset that consumes the greater proportion of fuel ...

    :idea: ... Discuss ? .... :whistle:

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,417 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    AdrianC wrote: »

    They are nowhere near ready for heavy-use vehicles, which is where the majority of fuel is burnt, and the majority of emissions are produced.

    So you are not biased, yet post that.

    When Tesla announced the semi truck and specs, you started posting claims that their trucks were simply stage locked mock ups.

    Despite my many, many, many requests, you have never come back with any evidence, facts, links etc to support your statements:-
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?


    So it seems you are deliberately posting false information due to bias.

    Your other campaign on here appears to be to knock Tesla for having demand greater than supply, which is simply a way to continue to complain about EV manufacturers after they are successful.

    But when I point out that PSA have done little to further EV's and are now complaining that they need protection from any Chinese EV's, you spent weeks arguing and promoting them (despite Renault (and of course Nissan) having done far, far more).

    You also try to post something negative after any good news item, so you appear to be trying hard to post negatives, then spend far more time trying to claim you said/meant something else. This can't be accidental.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,417 Forumite
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    Workhorse continue to impress, with UPS upping their order for the new N-Gen from the trial 50 to 1,000.

    UPS Places Order For 950 Workhorse N-GEN Electric Delivery Vans
    UPS has ordered 950 N-GEN electric delivery vehicles from Workhorse, the American technology company headquartered in Loveland, Ohio. It began field-testing 50 of the N-GEN vans earlier this year. They have been designed from the ground up to meet UPS!!!8217;s exacting standards, including driver comfort and safety. The N-GEN van from Workhorse is the first all electric vehicle to be price competitively with conventional delivery vans without the need for tax credits, rebates or other incentives !!!8212; a first for an electric van in the industry.
    In an e-mail, a spokesperson for Workhorse told CleanTechnica,

    !!!8220;We designed this vehicle from the ground-up to be the safest, most efficient, highest performing last mile delivery system available. The vehicle is 14,500 GVWR, with up to 6,700 lbs of payload due to the lightweight, durable composite body design. The vehicle has a low floor height, which is optimal for last-mile delivery driver ergonomics, who enter and exit the vehicle 150+ times per day.

    !!!8220;The estimated range is 100 miles, or equivalent to 50 MPGe, compared with 7 mpg on average for a comparable delivery van. Standard charging options will include both Level 2 for overnight charging (approximately 6 hours), and DC fast charge (CCS standard) for opportunity charging (approximately 75 minutes). And finally, we have incorporated state-of-the-art safety features, including automatic braking, lane departure warning, a driver!!!8217;s side airbag.!!!8221;

    Looks like there are now options out there for all heavy-use vehicles. And these vehicles can be sold on economics (v's long term running costs). Just need to ramp up supply.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • silverwhistle
    silverwhistle Posts: 4,003 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    AdrianC wrote: »
    EVs are not quite (but it's close) ready to replace ICVs yet, for many people's primary-use vehicles. Charging infrastructure is the showstopper, and there is no easy way to sort that. For secondary vehicles, yes, they are absolutely viable - but they tend to be very low use anyway, so there's little emissions gain to be made - and that capability was already filled a couple of decades ago, but the market was not willing to make the compromises, and costs were too heavy.


    Good grief, I reckon that's the most positive you've ever appeared on here. But I still have to take you to task. Now, I'm not a company car driver and never was (but my goodness I drove some wonderful pool cars!), nor did I ever have a long commute. But look at the EV boards and you will see that EVs have various markets, just like ICEs in fact. The retired people with mortgage paid and a bit of sparemoney, the ones trying to reduce company car BIK and a good proportion of those doing 40 mile commutes EW - so lets say 18K miles a year. The latter high users find that they are saving money. Nor is charging infrastructure a problem for these people an issue as they charge at home.



    Now to extend the market improvements will have to be made, but even as it stands there is a potential for a lot bigger market share, if only production could be met and in a few years a second hand market develop more to meet the needs of people such as myself.


    So once again you've got it !!!! about face. Low mileage people such as myself cannot justify the CAPEX in spite of low running costs, but the short journeys I tend to do are exactly the ones which would benefit more. As it is I try and walk and cycle when I can: I'd probably use the car more if it were an EV!
  • Herzlos
    Herzlos Posts: 15,943 Forumite
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    The people on 40 mile commutes each way are finding they easily save enough in fuel to maintain the lease payments on brand new Leafs, with overnight charging and free charging points all over the place it's potentially more convenient than visiting petrol stations once a week.


    If I was driving my 40 mile each way rather than getting the train, I'd be in an EV.
  • NBLondon
    NBLondon Posts: 5,702 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Low mileage people such as myself cannot justify the CAPEX in spite of low running costs, but the short journeys I tend to do are exactly the ones which would benefit more. As it is I try and walk and cycle when I can: I'd probably use the car more if it were an EV!
    Bit it's still charging infrastructure though.... Great for those who have driveways and solar panels. For someone who does short-medium journeys (i.e.not convenient to cycle) they still have to keep track of when and where they can charge. Maybe they are lucky and always find the one charge point at the supermarket is free when they go there. If they suddenly need to go a longer journey - they can't rely on there definitely being a charge point on the way. Until there is the option to charge at every other lamppost - wirelessly - that's going to be a worry.

    I have noticed that there are more carclub options around me than there were 5 years ago. As we have residents parking - they have fixed bays. Now if those bays had a charger and the car was an EV (and you could rely on the last driver leaving it plugged in!) - that could be a way in for low-mileage users without the capital outlay.

    Yes - I'm being a bit city-centric. Rural users without the option to charge at home are going to be hardest to support. Maybe a village EV car-share works for some.
    I need to think of something new here...
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,729 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Debt-free and Proud!
    NBLondon wrote: »
    Bit it's still charging infrastructure though....
    Have a look at https://www.zap-map.com to see how many charging points there are and where. There are more charging places being added all the time now. There also an increasing number of places on the continent.

    I had a 30kWh Nissan Leaf last year and was able to travel from where I live in Lincolnshire to Devon, the Lake District, London and Norfolk with no problem. I now have a 40kWh Leaf and these trips are even easier. Early next year Nissan will be producing a 60kWh Leaf that should do over 200 miles on a charge and have battery temperature management so that it will be able to accept several rapid charges during a much longer journey.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • NBLondon
    NBLondon Posts: 5,702 Forumite
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    NigeWick wrote: »
    Have a look at https://www.zap-map.com to see how many charging points there are and where. There are more charging places being added all the time now.
    I did that upthread Nige... There's a difference between planning/modifying your route by working out where the compatible charge points are and being able to grab the keys and go in an emergency. Someone suggested 40 mile commutes - if you can't charge at home or at work - what are the chances of there being a suitable charge point en route that you can stop off at? Depends on where in the country your commute is - and how often you are prepared to add the extra time to it (at least once a week). There's going to be a tipping point when enough people are convinced that they won't be continually running out of juice but we're not there yet.
    I need to think of something new here...
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