Interesting thread on squealing pig

dopester

http://diy.despair.com/output/poster63466256.jpg

tomstickland

Its all very well people taking the moral high ground and saying well we warned you that you should only be leveraged at 70%

Well, they were probably right.

mean_momma

tryinhardtosavethepennies wrote: »

I can't help but wonder, (gosh, I came across all Carrie Bradshaw there!) won't it just happen again eventually? I mean, when prices drop, won't people start speculative buying again, knowing that they can make money from property because "it worked before, only this time I'll be more savvy having learned from my mistakes"? (I put that in quotes because it's not something I'd consider)

Well, why not, it's not against the law. I hate what the BTL brigade have brought on, but it is no good expecting them to take the moral high ground when opportunity knocks. It's up to the government to make sure that individuals get their castle and speculators get a huge tax bill.

monkeyman1974

teabelly wrote: »

It's a free market though. If the other families couldn't afford then they can't have. Too bad. They will have to rent. As a lot of people on here have been saying don't buy for the last few years because of an imminent crash there is little point complaining when investors buy the houses instead of the families who could have bought but chose not to.

Most of the BMV brigade buy stuff that has been hanging around for months rather than snapping up property from those families anyway.

Those without their own roof seem jealous of those that have one. Are those that hate BTLers just jealous as they had guts to follow an idea and it is something they wished they had the courage to do in their own life? BTL is a business/investment; why does it seem to get more moral objections than investing in companies that treat their staff like dirt or those that use child labour? Plumbers make money from people's misfortune in essence so why aren't they as villified?

For me it's because they receive tax relief on interest paid, unlike an owner occupier. It's totally inequitable and distorts the market by promoting high leverage. So maybe not BTLers as people, but rather the unfair advantage provided by the tax rules.

mr.broderick

What on earth is a strawman?
I read the post zammo, seems to me it is a fantasy situation posted to put the wind up the piggers.

brit1234

jamescredmond wrote: »

to get myself banned from this care home for the over-leveraged would indeed be an honour.

Fill your boots, one message to end messages. :rotfl:

I think they are slowly waking up but it is far to late, they are all trying to work out ways to reinvent one day re-mortgaging since it ended. Their business model is shot to the ground and as prices drop they use any equity they have left to purchase more property.

End result more property for first time buyers, lower prices and smaller steps on the property ladder.

fc123

Conrad wrote: »

Ok I've never admitted this before, but yes LLs with lots of properties did make me feel somehow inadequate.

I had 4 B2Ls and kept questioning why it was others I met had 10, 20, 50 or 100. What was it about them that I lacked? How did a humble little old lady I know own 100 properties in expensive commuter belt town - was she really that clever? How was it they could aquire so many properties but I could never make the figures work on more than 4?
Was I thick or something? (probably, in view of my occupation)

How did these genius's build such big portfolios so quickly?

Well now I have my answer; They took ridiculous risks and paid too little attention to downside risk. It wasn't intelligence, business acumen or courage.

It was simple blind faith.:rotfl:

This 'Patsy'thread has been rattling around my head all day (and I think it's a Strawman too....the very name Patsy indicates that it is)...........during long drive to London, during V Impt talk by M Portas and butting in when I needed to make crucial, creative decisions.

I too have felt the same as Conrad plus my siblngs.......we are at the end of a gigantic HPI period (and we all remembered the last downturn) and by the time we noticed that there was Mega HPI (prob 2003/4) , we didn't jump in then either.

Now I would like to brag that this was because we were sussed on bubble economics...nope...we were busy with our own businesses / ventures / lives and didn't watch Sarah Beeney programmes.

My sis had more than half million in equity + over £100k saved plus access to at least £150k of simple 0% credit. My BIL made noises about 'getting into property' a few times....never happpened. He did lose a shed load on an IT venture but they could have been in the very big s81t right now if they had 'Done property' like others they know.
They COULD have ammassed at least a million pounds worth of mortgages by now.
All personally liable too.

My brother and I are risk taking S/E types. We missed it too.
Stupid us making music and clothes.

Patsy IS Middle England. I have sufferred enough dinner parties where people who had ordinary jobs that didn't rely on any risk or speculation (teachers etc) suddenly found themselves with £200k of equity that 'Should be put to use....everyones doing it....gear up, you cannot lose'.

On paper, get 30 BTL's ~@ £100k each....get tenant to service the debt. Decade on flog for 3 times original ticket price. 3 million becomes 9 million.

Ordinary, salaried PAYE types know they could never, ever make 6 million (before taxes) with so little effort.
As property is a trade that is understood by most (in that everyone lives in a place at some point, wanders around Ikea choosing stuff) it seemed like a business that anyone could do.

What they failed to understand was the risk of all that personal debt. That servicing debt is subject to changes out of ones personal control (eg; credit crunch of 2008). That 'easy money' doesn't exist for many....if it was that easy, then we would all be worth 6 million.

I still think that Patsy is fictional but there are many like her out there.

Tough.
My business suffers changing in 'The Rules' all the time. I bleat, moan and stamp my foot (mainly on here late at night) as 'It's Not Fair' but I accept that it is how it is.
To survive; I have to change,adapt and accept the moving goal posts.
Assess the risks. I took on a lease a decade ago and HAD to give personal guarantees on it to secure it.

It's now not a good place to be but it was The Deal, my pact with the devil in the glass tower, I gained for a decade, now it's his turn.


These people mixed up just home owning (with a little, light renovation experience) with having the knowledge required to get into it Big Time.


Very little sympathy from me, and I keep saying it....I am very, very nice.:D



Now, what I learnt from Mary Portas today.....fascinating stuff.

Conrad...can we make up?? You should have been at this show and heard her; Very relevant top your furniture idea.

Generali

mr.broderick wrote: »

What on earth is a strawman?
I read the post zammo, seems to me it is a fantasy situation posted to put the wind up the piggers.

A strawman is a form of argument that you see a lot of on bulletin boards.

It's where you misrepresent someone elses views through a subtle but deliberate distortion of their position and then knock down the argument you've just made up for them rather than the one they are actually advancing.

Snooze

Topov wrote: »

I remember Martin did a program years ago where he was lamenting the state of the pensions industry and comparing the returns from his own BTL properties with the returns if he had put his money into a traditional pension. Needless to say that at that time the BTL won hads down. I just wonder how many people saw that program and piled into the BTL market, much to their cost now?

Just going off topic for a moment, I personally think Martin talks a whole pile of !!!!! sometimes. His Krusty-style blustering about how property will only ever go up/is a good investment in his "report" years ago is one example of that and I also thought his recent TV prog on savings was also bad advice (ie. there's nothing to be afraid of - put all your savings in the banks) considering the (very) unstable financial markets at the moment.

If that 2nd run on Northern Rock hadn't been rescued by the govt at the last second then anyone who'd had money with them would've been toast.

Talking of toast, that brings me nicely round to Patsy... :rotfl:

Rob

nightwatchman

I have not seen this program on savings. However I can not see what I could do with my hard earned cash under the present situation.

Stock market equities? At the moment they are as good investment as a night out in a casino.

Commodities or Gold? They are the next bubble.

I take my savings out of the stock exchange at 2006.

I could have made lots extra if I had let them there for an extra year however now with saving accounts out there that offering 10% it is not worth the risk.