Cashback Price Comparison Services Discussion

energyhelpline_company_representative

Dear all,

Just to say, anyone who has switched to Scottish Power through energyhelpline.com can change to the capped tariff as part of the application process and they will still get their cashback. They just need to phone ScottishPower. The capped tariffs are being sent to us now by ScottishPower and we will have them on the site as soon as possible. I expect by cob tomorrow (Weds 7/1/04).

Kind regards,

Mark.

energyhelpline_company_representative

Jes,

Sounds like you may have inadvertantly selected different tariffs from the same supplier. Possibly because ourselves and saveonyourbills are using different naming conventions for tariffs.

As an example - if you are comparing Atlantic tariffs you need to be very careful about selecting their 'Direct' tariff or their 'Standard' or 'Doorstep Delivery' tariff. One is very expensive and the other is very cheap.

Happy to talk you through any energyhelpline calculations (available on 0870 9220353 mon-fri 9am-6pm) and generally try to explain things.

Hope this helps,

Mark.

COS

Energy Helpline advise me to go to Scottish Power on line and Save on your Bills tell me to go to Atlantic each offering better savings than the other. This info has come as no surprise really. These are the first two I have compared with the same data entered. Let them try and explain this one , typical of rip off Britain or are they just two of many comparison sites conning people.

System

There is more to this than meets the eye.

I just carried out my own comparison, using all the sites regularly recommended by Martin and here is what I found,

The base data was

Postcode CR0 4UZ
Payment by monthly direct debit
Standard Electricity
3000 kwhs of electricity
30000 kwhs of gas
I looked at ALL prices on the sites

---

Energyhelpline
1. Scottish Power online £613
2. Scottish Power online £613
3. Virgin Home Energy £625

Save on Your Bills
1. ScottishPower £629
2. Swalec £643
3. Npower £656

Energylinx
1. Telecom Plus £589
2. Atlantic Direct £599
3. Atlantic Direct £599

UK Power
1. Telecom Plus £589
2. Atlantic Direct £599
3. Atlantic Direct £599

Uswitch
1. Telecom Plus £589
2. Atlantic Direct £599
3. Atlantic Direct £599

It gets even more interesting if you look at the top 10 for each company.

I am going to do this tomorrow and post the results here if you wish.

It would appear that you can get your cashback from Energyhelpline or Save on Your Bills but to do so you must pay more than you need in the first instance.

Is this really a good money saving tip?

It may be better not to recommend these companies until they start listing all the prices not just the ones they get commission from.

Is this not how the banks got into to trouble a few years ago with endowment mortgages?

My recommendation would be to stick with the sites that list everyone and forget anyone who attempts to manipulate the market.

There was a comment on one of the earlier bulletin boards about Energyhelpline being reported to Energywatch - maybe it is time to stand up to companies like this that attempt to confuse us?

This looks like a miss-selling event just waiting to happen!!! Hope these companies have deep pockets.

System

You are absolutely right Jenna - it is crappy manipulation of the data to suit the companies own agenda. I checked your results and it's even more sinister. Uswitch only show the Atlantic Direct tariff if you do the search by service ranking (their own) and the results come up at the very bottom of the list, but when you search by price they are nowhere to be seen. This comes as no surprise since Atlantic are not paying Uswitch commissions anymore.

Energywatch - where are you? You recommend these sites. It's time to start earning the taxpayers respect and sort it out.

Tiger

COS

Martin why you are tipping these sites when it has been so obvious for the past year that they are misinforming us and why are they allowed to keep trading by offering bribes.

Galstonian

I thought I would do the same and found that putting the same details into uswitch shows

ScottishPower £613.31
ScottishPower £613.36
Virgin HomeEnergy £625.95

Weird?

Strangely enough if you look more closely at the energyhelpline you can find things like "Customers switching on the Atlantic Electric and Gas website will receive a discount of 20% on these tariffs." This should mean that Atlantic would be 80% of £691.36 = £553.9, cheaper than anyone else.

I think saying use these sites if you want but use them all and you surely can't go too far wrong?

MSE_Martin

I have asked both Saveonyourbills and EnergyHelpline to respond to the above comments.  I think we all need to hear what they have to say.  I'm not particularly enthused by the results that are given above and hope they will explain.

Now let me give you my thoughts on this above debate perhaps something I should have done earlier.

Genuine reasons for tariff differences
There are some genuine reasons for some of the usual differences that appear

i. When people use prices - different assumptions based on discount packages for dual fuel - changes weightings.

ii. British Gas discount package is a particularly complicated equation

iii. Economy 7 - depends on the assumption of how much of the bill is put down to this.

Not so genuine reasons

These differences are admittedly minor - they in no way account for the missed providers.  

However this is a very tough line to tread.  Chris I appreciate your view and take it on board.  Let me be totally candid here (if I can't be here with MoneySavers, I can't be anywhere)

Most people and most of the audience i deal with are not the people using these chat boards.  They are often people who want an answer, a simple answer to the problems.  Any more than the simple answer and inaction rules.

Inaction in this case invariably leaves them sticking with British Gas and their regional electricity company and never switching - resulting in large profits and people paying massively over the odds.  Take a look at the figures - the majority of the population has NEVER switched.  NEVER!

So what do i do? Well I find the easiest solution for people, price comparison engines.  They're easy, they're accredited by an industry body Energywatch, so there is (or should be) some regulation.  They are certainly massively better than relying on the salespeople pummeling door or signing people up in supermarkets (incidentally most people who have switched have switched this way).  

Then there's the cashback deal, all with the Energywatch approved providers (do note most articles on this subject in newspapers simply pump for any comparison engine without glancing any further - the whole fact we are discussing this is massively more sophisticated than anywhere else - the next time you see a gas & elec article - look how basic it is written).  Low and behold the £10 in the pocket is a further incentive to get people off their backsides and start thinking about these bills.  It attracts lots of people.

So having led people to understand that they are wasting cash - i can tell them the 'top line headlines' and hope they actually read the article.  (this all may sound slilghtly patronising, but truth is for most people this is how it works, they dont want to spend any time on these things). Briefly you know my caveats i add 'don't let cashback be decider', 'check out energylinks for full TP comparison' , 'use KW hours for more accurate' and then of course there's the advanced survey at the end which goes through these issues.  

Right that said, then we come to this issue.  The finessing of the top deals, the non-ful inclusion of some deals.   The three main providers missed are i. TP ii. StayWarm iii. Atlantic Direct.

i. TP: With TP, there used to be valid reason, even Energywatch guidelines for non-inclusion of multi-utility non-provider tariffs.  Yet that's changed.  In fact I lobbied hard when doing my survey that all the companies should include its three tarifffs.   I even spoke to TP's Chief Exec Charles Wigoder about making sure the tariffs were more easily available so the price comparison services included it.  Then I detailed each companies stance on TP in the survey - to aid this.

ii. StayWarm: With StayWarm, well frankly i always make a big play of that, both in the article and on air, because it is such a different proposition and should be given its own mention.  Again I've lobbied for inclusion of it in PC company results - a few have changed policies - SImply Energy now includes a mention on the phone asking if you're over 60 on the back of my nagging.  

iii. As for Atlantic Direct - to be honest when i wrote the piece, this wasnt really an issue as it was a trial tariff hence its lack of inclusion.  

If I'm honest I will admit there is a balancing act people - between the mass "JUST SWTICH IT'S EASY MESSAGE" which is an important public service and the "PRICE COMPARISON DIFFERENCES AT THE MARGINS" I hope you see why this is a difficult issue for me.  Behind the scenes I am plugging away.  The price comparison services are forming an industry body in Feb - i intend to lobby it for uniformity of standards and calculation basis and a ruling of what should be included.  However I do fear knocking some little monster price comparison mistakes too loudly and publically will allow the big monster of overcharging utility companies to step in its place.

If i put my hand on my heart, I would prefer most people to use a price comparison engine and switch than stick with the incumbent suppliers, they will invariably be much much much better off.  I hope most people would take the time and trouble to actually go further read the article in detail and the survey in detail and tehn make their decision.  I provide the info if people want it.

Finally, I provide a link from the aritcle to here, for this very discussion.  I know that sounds a small point.  It's not.  This discussion is directly available, one click away - your comments and mine.  I consider the 'ask a question or discuss this by clicking here' link at the end of each article a crucial MoneySaver defence.  I am not infallible and there are always individual complications - the resource here is simply unavailable anywhere else. Even other chat boards aren't so integrally linked to the site's main articles - its something im both keen on and proud of. What great scrutiny can i be under than this.

I hope that answers your question in full.  Please trust me that behind the scenes I am pushing on this.  Hence inviting the two chaps to answer here.  And talking to the trade body - (when it forms).  

martin

System

Dear All contributors

There appear to be a number of questions and issues that have arisen here and I will try and deal with them in the order in which I have read them.

First the posting by Jenna

It was very detailed but I could not compare on the same basis as you did not put who was your current supplier down which does make a difference, but I will try and help with the question.

The difference in why suppliers appear to be different on the different comparison web sites?

First the two companies offering cash back, Saveonyourbills and Energyhelpline.

The difference in the two best suppliers Scot. Power and Scot Power online is around £16. The additional discount give or take rounding for taking an online product is £15 with Scot Power. This explains the difference in these two sites top savings. Energyhelpline defaults to the Online product and Saveonyourbills to the direct debit product as that is what was asked for. The online product is available by selecting the “online” filter

At saveonyourbills we try to provide a simple like for like comparison. Unlike some of the postings have suggested there is no manipulation of figures as it is a mathematical formula. The unit rates, standing charges and discounts dictate what should determine the best supplier along with how you pay the region or the country and current supplier.

We also compare like for like, example say you pay by direct debit but get the statement through the post and want to find another cheaper direct debit supplier then that is what we show. A like for like comparison. Some comparison sites show all products unless you tell them other wise. Saveonyourbills shows you the best direct debit suppliers as a default and then if you wish to look into say internet account managed or green tariffs then there are the options to do this very easily. Other sites default to internet account managed tariffs.

The comment about having to pay more to get cash back is untrue. The unit rates are the same as for all it is just the way the information is displayed based on the choice you made when comparing supplier products.

There is no attempt to confuse it is trying to make it easier by providing an accurate comparison based on the product you are on and the product you wish to sign up for and make a saving

At Saveonyourbills we list all suppliers. If we do not have an agreement with them to pass over customers we still list them in the results screen and advise you of their contact address and details should you wish to sign up to them.
I hope this helps answer the questions and if you need any more help please post again or contact me direct

Thanks

Richard

[shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]

COS

I have asked both Saveonyourbills and EnergyHelpline to respond to the above comments.  I think we all need to hear what they have to say.  I'm not particularly enthused by the results that are given above and hope they will explain.

Now let me give you my thoughts on this above debate perhaps something I should have done earlier.

Genuine reasons for tariff differences
There are some genuine reasons for some of the usual differences that appear

i. When people use prices - different assumptions based on discount packages for dual fuel - changes weightings.

ii. British Gas discount package is a particularly complicated equation

iii. Economy 7 - depends on the assumption of how much of the bill is put down to this.

Not so genuine reasons

These differences are admittedly minor - they in no way account for the missed providers.  

However this is a very tough line to tread.  Chris I appreciate your view and take it on board.  Let me be totally candid here (if I can't be here with MoneySavers, I can't be anywhere)

Most people and most of the audience i deal with are not the people using these chat boards.  They are often people who want an answer, a simple answer to the problems.  Any more than the simple answer and inaction rules.

Inaction in this case invariably leaves them sticking with British Gas and their regional electricity company and never switching - resulting in large profits and people paying massively over the odds.  Take a look at the figures - the majority of the population has NEVER switched.  NEVER!

So what do i do? Well I find the easiest solution for people, price comparison engines.  They're easy, they're accredited by an industry body Energywatch, so there is (or should be) some regulation.  They are certainly massively better than relying on the salespeople pummeling door or signing people up in supermarkets (incidentally most people who have switched have switched this way).  

Then there's the cashback deal, all with the Energywatch approved providers (do note most articles on this subject in newspapers simply pump for any comparison engine without glancing any further - the whole fact we are discussing this is massively more sophisticated than anywhere else - the next time you see a gas & elec article - look how basic it is written).  Low and behold the £10 in the pocket is a further incentive to get people off their backsides and start thinking about these bills.  It attracts lots of people.

So having led people to understand that they are wasting cash - i can tell them the 'top line headlines' and hope they actually read the article.  (this all may sound slilghtly patronising, but truth is for most people this is how it works, they dont want to spend any time on these things).  Briefly you know my caveats i add 'don't let cashback be decider', 'check out energylinks for full TP comparison' , 'use KW hours for more accurate' and then of course there's the advanced survey at the end which goes through these issues.  

Right that said, then we come to this issue.  The finessing of the top deals, the non-ful inclusion of some deals.   The three main providers missed are i. TP ii. StayWarm iii. Atlantic Direct.

i. TP: With TP, there used to be valid reason, even Energywatch guidelines for non-inclusion of multi-utility non-provider tariffs.  Yet that's changed.  In fact I lobbied hard when doing my survey that all the companies should include its three tarifffs.   I even spoke to TP's Chief Exec Charles Wigoder about making sure the tariffs were more easily available so the price comparison services included it.  Then I detailed each companies stance on TP in the survey - to aid this.

ii. StayWarm: With StayWarm, well frankly i always make a big play of that, both in the article and on air, because it is such a different proposition and should be given its own mention.  Again I've lobbied for inclusion of it in PC company results - a few have changed policies - SImply Energy now includes a mention on the phone asking if you're over 60 on the back of my nagging.  

iii. As for Atlantic Direct - to be honest when i wrote the piece, this wasnt really an issue as it was a trial tariff hence its lack of inclusion.  

If I'm honest I will admit there is a balancing act people - between the mass "JUST SWTICH IT'S EASY MESSAGE" which is an important public service and the "PRICE COMPARISON DIFFERENCES AT THE MARGINS" I hope you see why this is a difficult issue for me.  Behind the scenes I am plugging away.  The price comparison services are forming an industry body in Feb - i intend to lobby it for uniformity of standards and calculation basis and a ruling of what should be included.  However I do fear knocking some little monster price comparison mistakes too loudly and publically will allow the big monster of overcharging utility companies to step in its place.

If i put my hand on my heart, I would prefer most people to use a price comparison engine and switch than stick with the incumbent suppliers, they will invariably be much much much better off.  I hope most people would take the time and trouble to actually go further read the article in detail and the survey in detail and tehn make their decision.  I provide the info if people want it.

Finally, I provide a link from the aritcle to here, for this very discussion.  I know that sounds a small point.  It's not.  This discussion is directly available, one click away - your comments and mine.  I consider the 'ask a question or discuss this by clicking here' link at the end of each article a crucial MoneySaver defence.  I am not infallible and there are always individual complications - the resource here is simply unavailable anywhere else.  Even other chat boards aren't so integrally linked to the site's main articles - its something im both keen on and proud of.  What great scrutiny can i be under than this.  

I hope that answers your question in full.  Please trust me that behind the scenes I am pushing on this.  Hence inviting the two chaps to answer here.  And talking to the trade body - (when it forms).  

martin

Martin

I fully agree with your comments and appreciate all the back ground work you are doing to look after us money savers.


Chris