Landlords responsibility - re: nuisance tenants

terryw

clutton wrote: »

terryw - you are trying to make sense of Landlord/Tenant legislation - and there is very little rhyme nor reason to it - let along common sense to it.

if neighbours write to the council to complain about their ocal tenants behaviour the councill has a statutory duty to write to the landlord and ask what s/he is going to do about it. The LL must then "address" the issue - liaising with the local council Environmental Health and/or ASBO team for advice on how to deal with it, writing to, visiting, talking to the tenant - ultimately getting rid of the tenant.

surely at the end of thr day no LL wants an anti social ASBO type tenant ????

Every AST i have ever seen includes a clause about not annoying the neighbours

Yes, of course I agree with you. I have already said that no landlord wants such tenants. But what can he actually about it? At the end of the AST he can issue a Section 21 and have them evicted at a cost. But before then, there is little that he can do other than liaise with the council. How can a Landlord be responsible for his tenant's actions?

I see cases in my local paper (and I am sure that these sorts will be in your area as well), where real hardcase council tenants are eventually evicted at enormous cost in monitoring, discussion, visits, police, legal aid etc etc etc. The tenants are then rehoused by the council! Is the council then responsible for any actions that the hardcases take at their new abode?

terryw.

olly300

terryw wrote: »

How can a Landlord be responsible for his tenant's actions?

Because the landlord is the only one who can legally evict them.

terryw

olly300 wrote: »

Links:
1. Aimed at landlords

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-31---dealing-with-noise-and-nuisance.html

2. Aimed at Tenants and is from Shelter
http://england.shelter.dev.squiz.co.uk/get_advice/advice_topics/renting_and_leasehold/rights_and_responsibilities/tenants_responsibilities

Thanks for the links Olly. But in the Landlord Link, I can't find anything there about the landlord's responsibility for his tenants. There is a bit about the landlord taking civil proceedings for noise if this is against the contract, but there is nothing to suggest that the landlord must do this. Indeed, the link suggests that this is a criminal offence and it probably better to go by this route anyway.

terryw

scorpio_princess

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

We had a similar situation a couple of years ago...tenants doing band practice in the front room/next door baby couldn't sleep scenario, and quite rightly, the neighbour complained to the LA we had dealing with the property at the time.

LUCKILY it was all sorted out very quickly and the tenants adjusted their 'band' time to the neighbours baby sleep time, and all was well...BUT as LL's WE would have been held responsible if it had gone a bit messy.

Rightly or wrongly, or however impossible it is to either enforce OR comply with the regulations, the LL IS responsible for his/her tenants' actions if they cause a nuisance or disturbance to others.

I can't find anything online to support this, but I do have it in paperwork somewhere. When I get a minute, I'll look it up and try posting the relevant clause(s) on here.

It's just another bluddy ridiculous regulation that is as farcical as it is unenforcable, but your mate definitely has to at least be aware of it, even if he chooses not to do anything.

In defence of LLs, why is the law so that they have to be responsible for how their tenants behave? If you lived next door to people who owned their property and they were being disruptive and unpleasant, who is to blame for that? Answer - they are! So why is it different for rented properties? People should be held responsible for their own behaviour, whether they rent, own, live in a HA place or the shed at the bottom of the garden! It's not like a prospective tenant's propensity to cause a racket would ever show up on a reference check (but wouldn't it be nice if it did )

I just don't understand why come people seem to be able to shift the blame for anything bad they've done onto someone else - they should be made accountable for their own actions!! God I hate this nanny state we live in sometimes...

terryw

olly300 wrote: »

Because the landlord is the only one who can legally evict them.

The landlord can only evict if he has a possession order from the court. He must have a reason for requiring a possession order. Theses "grounds" are very strict...the easiest is Section 21 when the tenancy expires. The others require proof. How can the landlord obtain this proof to satisfy a court? Is it likely that the neighbours will turn up at a court hearing or must the landlord meekly tell the judge that he has no actual proof of noise but a neighbour told him that there was noise.

terryw

p.s There is a fault in your logic that a landlord is responsible for his tenant's actions because the landlord is the only person who can evict them. So if the tenant is noisy, or a burglar, or a murderer, or a satanist, or is rude to old ladies , or even worse, a person living nearby THINKS that they are one of these, then it is the landldord to blame because he is the only one who can evict them! I think not.

Bungarm2001

I'm still ploughing thru reams of different councils' assorted paperwork collected these past couple of years to try and find a definitive answer to this.

Salford council seem to be the only ones so far that I can find that actually mention ASBO's etc and Landlords together in the same sentence, but this particular leaflet is more about the LL's working together with the local ASBO person (policeman??) although for the life of me, I can't see how, what or why a LL should get involved in that, particularly if they live miles away??

I'm going to call the Salford Accreditation team tomorrow and see what they say because I am positive it was from them that we heard about LL's being held responsible for the actions of their tenants.

As soon as I get an answer, I'll post on here. I'll also look into what other council accreditation scheme managers say about this.

Interesting to see that it is stated pretty clearly that this is a fact now in Scotland.

terryw

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

I'm still ploughing thru reams of different councils' assorted paperwork collected these past couple of years to try and find a definitive answer to this.

Salford council seem to be the only ones so far that I can find that actually mention ASBO's etc and Landlords together in the same sentence, but this particular leaflet is more about the LL's working together with the local ASBO person (policeman??) although for the life of me, I can't see how, what or why a LL should get involved in that, particularly if they live miles away??

I'm going to call the Salford Accreditation team tomorrow and see what they say because I am positive it was from them that we heard about LL's being held responsible for the actions of their tenants.

As soon as I get an answer, I'll post on here. I'll also look into what other council accreditation scheme managers say about this.

Interesting to see that it is stated pretty clearly that this is a fact now in Scotland.

Thanks very much for your kind offer. Any link would be much welcome.

But even the "Scottish link" is not that helpful in answering the basic question.......Is a landlord responsible for the actions of his tenants? The answer is, "Not legally" (unless someone kind can provide chapter and verse.)

terryw.

clutton_2

"Is a landlord responsible for the actions of his tenants?" - yes -

you dont seem to want to believe this somehow - several of us have told you this IS the case

A tenant signs a contract with a LL to rent a property - normally an AST - which normally will contain a phrase about "not annoying the neighbours" -

the Tenant signs this agreement and agrees to NOT annoy the neighbours -

if he DOES annoy the neighbours the Local Authorities have imperceptibly kindly passed this responsibility onto the Landlord to take action over - the only realistic action a good landlord will take is to evict - and issuing a Section 21 at the end of the tenancy is a bit late really .......

You cannot go before a court and ask for possession due to noise nuisance, unless you have a body of evidence - and many neighbours will moan to a LL but will never step forward and give a written statement out of fear.

Whether you accept what several of us are saying, or not, your "mate" does not sound like a very responsible or knowledgeable landlord if he is willing to allow the neighbours to be so annoyed by his tenants

terryw

clutton wrote: »

"Is a landlord responsible for the actions of his tenants?" - yes -

you dont seem to want to believe this somehow - several of us have told you this IS the case

A tenant signs a contract with a LL to rent a property - normally an AST - which normally will contain a phrase about "not annoying the neighbours" -

the Tenant signs this agreement and agrees to NOT annoy the neighbours -

if he DOES annoy the neighbours the Local Authorities have imperceptibly kindly passed this responsibility onto the Landlord to take action over - the only realistic action a good landlord will take is to evict - and issuing a Section 21 at the end of the tenancy is a bit late really .......

You cannot go before a court and ask for possession due to noise nuisance, unless you have a body of evidence - and many neighbours will moan to a LL but will never step forward and give a written statement out of fear.

Whether you accept what several of us are saying, or not, your "mate" does not sound like a very responsible or knowledgeable landlord if he is willing to allow the neighbours to be so annoyed by his tenants

You are repeating much of what I have said already.

However, your last sentence:
"Whether you accept what several of us are saying, or not, your "mate" does not sound like a very responsible or knowledgeable landlord if he is willing to allow the neighbours to be so annoyed by his tenants" is incorrect. I do not have such a "mate". The original poster has referred to a friend of his though.

terryw

clutton_2

my apologies terry - i had mistaken you for the OP !!!