A Tenant's guide to renting

franklee

paintpot wrote: »

IF you received a s21 notice when you signed the tenancy agreement then the landlord is lax to say the least if they have not spoken to you or corresponded with you prior to the expiry of that notice/end of tenancy in order to agree a check out/collection of keys etc. Yes, the landlord can apply to court for a possession order but it will cost them.

You have missed the point. The whole point of the Sword of Damocles is that the landlord lets the S21 notice expire *without* mentioning it. Thus when he later on does want the tenant to go he doesn't have the inconvenience of waiting that two months for the S21 to expire. He can simply proceed to stage 2 without waiting.

And the cost of court fees will most likely be charged to the tenant if they lose which they will for a valid S21.

paintpot wrote: »

They may have have served you a s21 as a matter of course as some landlords do, in which case they may not want you to leave.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean and the implications of this are explained above. The point is that the tenant is then deprived of their notice as they are not asked to leave on expiry of the S21 so they continue living there but now the S21 notice period is all gone.

newname_3

Well IF it was an s21 (which I must admit i think it could have been especially because of the underhand reasons given - "it's just so we can evict you if you don't pay your rent" - and I should have read it more carefully myself). They won't want me out unless their planning application is approved so they're hedging their bets at the moment. I'm worried how much notice they'll feel the need to give me if permission is granted.

I am !!!!ed off with them because before i moved in just over a year ago I asked (in writing) if they were planning to rennovate the building in a way that would mean tenants would have to leave. I asked them this because the previous tenants had said there had been an architect looking at the flats. They lied and said it was just a surveyor looking for remortgaging purposes. The plans submitted to the council have been a long time in the making and their decorator has since told me that this has always been their intention.

paintpot

Franklee, I understand what you are saying entirely but a LL or agent cannot rely on a s21(b) notice indefinitely and then suddenly pop up in a court of law months later and say "we served you one of these, months have passed and we have done nothing about it but now we want a possession order". Otherwise there wouldn't be section 21a notices and s21b notices. That's my understanding anyway. The tenant is now into a periodic tenancy hence why I asked how long it has been a periodic tenancy? Also, landlords do serve them to hedge their bets and in this instance the LL may not want the OP to leave and they are worrying about nothing. The fact it has switched to a periodic and the LL hasn't renewed the tenancy then gives them the flexibility to start the process again with a new s21 should they want to gain possession without being committed to a new fixed term - in the mean time they are getting valuable rent(I trust the OP is paying their rent) until they are "ready".

Newname, if you answer the questions I asked then, I or others may be able to advise you further. I would suggest you post this as a separate thread on the same board as your point is getting a little lost in this thread.

franklee

paintpot wrote: »

Franklee, I understand what you are saying entirely but a LL or agent cannot rely on a s21(b) notice indefinitely and then suddenly pop up in a court of law months later and say "we served you one of these, months have passed and we have done nothing about it but now we want a possession order".

Yep, that's exactly what he can do.

paintpot wrote: »

Otherwise there wouldn't be section 21a notices and s21b notices. That's my understanding anyway. The tenant is now into a periodic tenancy hence why I asked how long it has been a periodic tenancy?

So long as the S21 was served correctly with correct dates etc. then it's valid indefinitely. It remains valid even though the tenancy goes periodic.

paintpot wrote: »

Also, landlords do serve them to hedge their bets and in this instance the LL may not want the OP to leave and they are worrying about nothing.

Which is the whole point, the tenant is left in uncertainty not knowing if the landlord will ask them to leave or not and with the S21 notice period gone.

paintpot wrote: »

The fact it has switched to a periodic and the LL hasn't renewed the tenancy then gives them the flexibility to start the process again with a new s21 should they want to gain possession without being committed to a new fixed term - in the mean time they are getting valuable rent(I trust the OP is paying their rent) until they are "ready".

See above THE S21 ISSUED AT THE START IF VALID BACK THEN REMAINS VALID EVEN THOUGH THE TENANCY IS NOW PERIODIC!

paintpot wrote: »

Newname, if you answer the questions I asked then, I or others may be able to advise you further. I would suggest you post this as a separate thread on the same board as your point is getting a little lost in this thread.

It's relevant here as the Sword of Damocles is a widely used scam and one that tenants need to be aware of. Search for Damocles. Asking elsewhere won't change the facts.

newname_3

Edit when did your fixed term tenancy end by the way? Why do you think they want to refurbish the property and get you out? I ask this as I didnt see this in your first post They may have have served you a s21 as a matter of course as some landlords do, in which case they may not want you to leave. Is the property managed by an agent or by the landlord?

sorry paintpot. I didn't register your questions. I'm a bit stressed out after seeing the planning applications online for the complete and utter renovation of the flats into different sized dwellings. (there's no way I could remain.)

Started fixed term tenancy on april 1, 2007 which then expired after six months. Then there were no new documents it carried on as a rolling tenancy. Suspected s21 given a couple of days before tenancy started. (but most likely with correct dates.) I'm a good tenant, look after the place, don't disturb others and pay my rent well on time. Property managed by the landlord who is the one planning a very ambitious redevelopment. Decision due on their planning application at the end of July. If it fails they won't yet want me to leave until they do get a successful proposal. I don't trust them since they have lied to me on more than one occasion.

franklee

newname wrote: »

Started fixed term tenancy on april 1, 2007 which then expired after six months. Then there were no new documents it carried on as a rolling tenancy. Suspected s21 given a couple of days before tenancy started.

Ah, well therein may be a loophole. To be valid a S21 must be served after the tenancy has started. If it was served before the start date on the AST and before you were given the keys it's probably invalid. But then without a copy how do you prove the date?

newname_3

But then without a copy how do you prove the date?

True. Write and ask for a copy I guess. I was handed the keys on that day too though even though my official start date was three/four days later. But they could have put the date on as my tenancy start date anyway I suppose because I probably would have signed thinking that was what was appropriate. (Iknow, Iknow..more careful next time).

paintpot

Newname and Franklee

I guess there are a few options:

You contact the LL and ask for a copy of the notice and then you can check it's validity and see whether it was indeed served. But then you reveal that you havent got your copy.

You contact the landlord asking for a new fixed term contract and see what their response is (you don't have to sign it). My understanding is that the s21 (it it was served) becomes invalid if negotiations are entered into regarding renewing the tenancy, best if it is in writing)

You contact the landlord and actually ask them upfront about their intentions regarding the building and see what they say

You don't do anything and sit and wait it out to see if you are evicted as per the section 21

This is where you come in Franklee, on the basis of what you have said:

If the Op finds somewhere can they just leave with no notice as technically they are under a s21 (of course only if they can prove that were issued a s21) or, as they are now under a periodic tenancy normally, (without the SOD S21) the tenant has to serve a minimum of a month's notice running from a rent date.

The OP needs some advice on options and you seem far more knowledgeable on the subject of the sword of damocles than me

franklee

paintpot wrote: »

If the Op finds somewhere can they just leave with no notice as technically they are under a s21 (of course only if they can prove that were issued a s21)

Yes but the problem here is Newname doesn't know if a S21 was even served. I think writing to the landlord for a copy of all paperwork would be the best and take it from there.

paintpot wrote: »

or, as they are now under a periodic tenancy normally, (without the SOD S21) the tenant has to serve a minimum of a month's notice running from a rent date.

Yes, if there is indeed no S21 although the minimum of a month's notice needs to end on the last day of a period. So if the period is 17th to 16th then the tenant could give six weeks notice which is OK so long as it ends on the 16th.

newname_3

I did ring the shelter help line yesterday but may ring them again. The lady I spoke did advise me to inform them that I never got a copy of something I signed. She also said though if I haven't got a copy myself than I haven't been served notice.

Which left me afterwards thinking well do I want a copy then? However as I countersigned the documents presented to me I imagine that might suffice as evidence that I had seen the thing. But I think I will seek some more legal advice before I write to the landlord.