NPower gas 'sculpting'

DirectDebacle

Cardew wrote: »

DD,

I think what you have missed is that the letter Mark received was a generic letter, rather than a bespoke reply dealing with Mark's account.
Mark joined 12 Dec 2006 so your calculations are correct, but NPower, in this case, are not wrong in their letter - they just haven't addressed Mark's case.

I agree it appears to be generic and doesn't address his account query. It should, which is why I suggested he make further enquiries of npower. The section of the letter that meggsy posted is virtually identical.

It is rare we disagree but I maintain this letter is wrong. It attempts to create a historical record of dates for the 4572 per annum that does not exist. You will understand I would love to debate this with you but cannot at present. However we can agree to differ and I'll still buy you your pints.

My feeling is that npower are developing their 'get out of gaol' card. They keep pushing the point that from Nov 1st 07 no-one will be overcharged. This may well be correct as they have now published the monthly T1 units charged from that date on their web-site. I have also been given to understand that a new 'How to work out your bill' leaflet will be sent out to customers.

In their minds, and they hope in customers minds, they seek to establish 1st Nov. as the date the 4572 year starts. Then they work this in reverse and are now maintaining the year in which the overcharging took place was 1st Nov 06 to 31st October 07. Using their weighting figures for this period there is a theoretical maximum of 5596 T1 units. This overcharge of 1024 they say was compensated for with the T2 reduction and increase in DD discount. They then go further back to say there was no overcharge in the previous two years which takes you back to 1st November 04 to 31st October 05.

Going further back we have the year 1st November 03 to 31st October 04. No overcharge that year either. Then go back another year.

"Oops a daisy, we can't. T1 & T2 units only came in on April 03. Never mind we'll just disregard the 2667 units charged over that period and stick with 1st Nov as the date", thinks npower.

It is good to see that they have apparently abandoned 'tariff years' but their choice of replacement is just as dubious and needs to be attacked as fiercely as the 'tariff year' was.

By using markys account as an example we can see that with a 'tariff year' of 1st Nov 06 to 31st Oct 07 he would have been overcharged by 373 T1 units from 12/12/06-31/10/07. npower can claim, by using this date of 1st Nov, that anyone joining on or after 1st January 07 will not have been overcharged as the 4572 year ended on 31/10/07.

Calculating from 1st April 07 to 31st March 08 markys account will show an overcharge (theoretically) of 1963. Big difference just by fiddling a date.

Sorry to bang on but I feel this is so important. Using 1st Nov will allow npower to get away with a huge amount of overcharging. Claims could be restricted to those customers who were with npower prior to Jan 07 and were still customers after 10th August 07 up to the 31st October cut off.

For all I know they may well have convinced Ofgem that 1st Nov is ok and that the price adjustments compensated everyone. I hope not.

Cardew

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I agree it appears to be generic and doesn't address his account query. It should, which is why I suggested he make further enquiries of npower.
It is rare we disagree but I maintain this letter is wrong. It attempts to create a historical record of dates for the 4572 per annum that does not exist. You will understand I would love to debate this with you but cannot at present. However we can agree to differ and I'll still buy you your pints.
.

DD you are absolutely correct and perhaps I phrased my post incorrectly.

I was attempting to point out that the discrepancy was between NPower's start date of 01 Nov 06 in their generic letter, and Mark's date of joining on 12 Dec 06. - not that 01 Nov 06 should be established as a reference point.

I most certainly wasn't defending the thrust of their argument(version 27.4 I believe!!!) in the letter in any way at all. Apart from the other points you make, if they reduced the price of Tier 2 to zero, it wouldn't affect the principle of the overcharging on Tier 1.

So I suspect we are in violent agreement!! and my pints are safe.

marky1125

Hi DirectDebacle, Cardew,

Thank you for your interest in this case. As requested DirectDebacle I provide all my numbers and details below. My original request was for them to recalculate my bills. Instead of doing that they sent the letter I published in post #697. Using the numbers on my bills I can provide the following printed numbers

13/12/2006-30/04/2007 T1 = 2600 @ 4.042p, and T2 = 7562 @ 2.177p
30/04/2007-30/09/2007 T1 = 1898 @ 4.412p, and T2 = 802 @ 1.915p
30/09/2007-27/11/2007 T1 = 1263 @ 4.412p, and T2 = 1949 @ 1.915p
27/11/2007-04/01/2008 T1 = 996 @ 4.412p, and T2 = 2605 @ 1.915p

Even though the bills split on 27th November instead of the 30th it seems as though nPowers calculations treated that as a whole month. The 30/09/2007-27/11/2007 bill seems to be 381 T1 units for October 2007 and 882 T1 units for November 2007 (381+882=1263). The following bill covered 27/11/2007-04/01/2008, it charged 996 T1 units which = 882 + (882/31*4) = 996. So that seems fair, if a little misleading.

In conclusion for the period 13/12/2006-31/10/2007 I paid the following

13/12/2006-30/04/2007 T1 = 2600 @ 4.042p, and T2 = 7562 @ 2.177p
30/04/2007-31/10/2007 T1 = 2279 @ 4.412p, and T2 = 1777 @ 1.915p

Total T1 units was 4879 (307 overcharge already).

If I use the bills to calculate the year 13/12/2006-12/12/2007

13/12/2006-30/04/2007 T1 = 2600 @ 4.042p, and T2 = 7562 @ 2.177p
30/04/2007-12/12/2007 T1 = 3502 @ 4.412p, and T2 = 3644 @ 1.915p

Total T1 units = 6102, so that's 1530 more T1 units than the yearly 4572. So that's an overbilling of 1530*(4.412-1.915)p = £38.20+VAT=£40.11 if you use the revised tariff. That 1 year adds up to £494+VAT worth of gas. If they hadn't changed the tariff values on 30/04/2007 then the price would have been £491+VAT. If they hadn't changed the tariff values and had only charged me for 4572 T1 units then I would have paid £462+VAT.

All the best,
Cheers,
Mark

Cardew

Mark,
Your figure of 6102 from 13/12/06 to 12/12/07 seems a little low. It was 5,761 to 27/11/07 from the first set of figures, and a pro rata figure of 341 from 27/11/07 to 12/12/07 a little low(403 would be closer) But that's splitting hairs.

Your case is of course not optimum.

Being pedantic again, VAT on Gas/electricity is 5% not the 17.5% you have used - sorry!

marky1125

Wow Cardew. You are quick, I really thought I might have got that post right but it's past midnight and mistakes creep in.
I've corrected the VAT calculation.

The 341 units for the 27/11/2007-12/12/2008 was calculated like so 882/31*12=341. The reason being, as I mentioned, that although nPower wrote 27th November they'd actually charged me for the whole month, so I thought it only fair to honour that in my calculations as well.

Cheers,
Mark

DirectDebacle

marky1125 wrote: »

Hi DirectDebacle, Cardew,

Thank you for your interest in this case. As requested DirectDebacle I provide all my numbers and details below. All the best,Cheers,
Mark

Mark,

Thank you for going to all the time and trouble to posting your replies. I realise Cardew and I can be quite demanding at times (Cardew is the worst by far and he can be very annoying). Good luck with your wranglings with npower.

DirectDebacle

Cardew wrote: »

So I suspect we are in violent agreement!! and my pints are safe.

I have never agreed violently with anyone in my life before, so I don't know how to deal with this situation. Therefore I will do what I always do at times like this and go and get the pints in.

Several pints always seems to clarify matters somehow. It was during one of these moments that the pure, simple rationale of the 'tariff year' dawned on me and I nearly abandoned my claim. I discussed it the following day with my goldfish, Arkwright, a wise old wriggler of some 38 'Cycles'. He explained that alcohol induced decisions were never the best and that he never drank before deciding on important matters.

Everone should have an Arkwright in their life.

DirectDebacle

Persistence pays. Today I received a cheque in full settlement of my claim (£1375)incl court fees and expenses.

At some point I will post my Statement of Claim and the npower Statement of Defence to it as a guide which may help others wishing to claim.

Cardew is it one or two crates of ale you require.:beer:

backfoot

:beer: :j :T Fantastic news.Congratulations.

DirectDebacle

This isn't really my victory. It is a victory for this thread and all those that have contributed to it. I thank each and every one of you for all your help. Good luck with your claims and of course I will continue to help whenever I can.

As far as I know this is the first claim they have met in full and is quite large. Keep pushing them. They will either have to keep coughing up or make a stand in court which will expose this outrageous conduct for what it is.