NPower gas 'sculpting'

Cardew

Sterling wrote: »

You seem to be saying that people should not be accepting these “hush money” payments, but I say that every such payment made (and banked) reduces Npower’s defense to an order to repay all its affected customers their full entitlement to compensation (including the ones who have received something already. Every time someone informs this thread that they have received a satisfactory offer of payment (or bank a cheque) from Npower will therefore be of great help to this cause.

As you say we are all on the same side in this dispute.

I didn't read into DD's comments that it is necessarily wrong to take 'hush money' but that it would be preferable if lots of people had their 'day in court' as DD and hopefully other public spirited customers intend.

Whilst any 'hush money' reports add weight to the argument, they are without admission of liability and have not set a legal precedent.

I doubt if a fraction of 1% of those overcharged by NPower will get any form of compensation unless the 'big guns' get involved.

DirectDebacle

Sterling wrote: »

Direct Debacle - we are obviously on the same side, and so I hope you don’t mind if I disagree with you on a few details.

Yes we are on the same side but have a slightly different approach to the same problem. I am trying to help and advise, as best I can, in a practical and realistic way on a situation as it is now and not how I would like it to be.

I agree entirely with your views on Ofgem, Energywatch etc but until those things come to pass they are of academic interest to me as it doesn't help my situation to consider them.

Gas bills are not sexy. That means that as far as the media are concerned there are better things at the moment that sell newspapers. News moves fast these days and I would suggest uppermost in peoples minds are questions like, can I pay my/get a mortgage. Are my savings/stocks/shares safe? Am I in negative equity? Will I lose my job/my house etc etc.
We have had the shock of recent utility price hikes and in the main that is now wrapping todays fish and chips.

I agree mass media coverage of this is required, but as I said, it aint sexy and it aint new. It has been covered to an extent by the national media. I also know that one serious paper is still interested in this story. Trouble is the situation hasn't moved on since it was last reported so there is nothing new for them to report at the moment. It is on the back burner awaiting developments.

Personally I have (some months ago) contacted;
Energywatch
Ofgem
Consumer direct
Trading standards
Help the aged
Age concern
Local Tv, Radio and Newspapers
National TV Radio and Newspapers (incl Watchdog)
My M.P.

I received two responses. One from a national daily which did cover the story admirably and two replies from Malcom Wicks MP who is in the BERR (Dept for Buisness Enterprise and Regulatory Reform) BERR response (sent to my MP and forwarded to me) showed how little interest and knowledge they have in this matter. I was referred back to Energywatch.

I have no doubt others on here have been at least, if not more, active in attempting to bring this to the wider public attention. As I said, gas bills aren't sexy.

I had recent communication with Energywatch (this week) which included an observation that Ofgem were (still) investigating this matter and it was likely to be several months before they reported their findings.

I am therefore concentrating on what is in my control. That is taking the steps I feel necessary to resolve my claim using the few means that are open to me. So now I have a court date.

In my last post (and previous ones) I have stated that I fully understand the reasons why others would not wish to take this route and reach a settlement with npower. My stance, and this is purely personal, is that if you have a legitimate claim and settle for less than that claim then you are doing yourself a disservice and npower a favour. Any defence npower put forward will not be weakened by them by making without prejudice payments with no admission of liability. At the moment each case will be dealt with individually and on its own merits. I am not 100% on the rules of evidence but I think it most unlikely a judge would allow me to call a witness who would say that 2 months ago he had a claim for £100, settled it for £80 and it was similar to mine. I think the npower lawyer would raise a few objections to calling this witness too.
Having said that it is encouraging that npower have moved from total denial to some sort of acknowledgement. We need to nudge them a bit more. That is part of what I am trying to do.

I am trying to be realistic. You have quoted two examples of court fees. They vary according to the size of the claim and most claims will be under £300. If you get a hearing date then there is an additional £50.00 hearing fee to pay on top of what you quote. Add your time and trouble to preparing the case, travelling costs to and from court, maybe taking a day or half day off work to attend the hearing etc and I don't think I was being unrealistic with the costs likely to be involved. True, if you win, you get these re-imbursed but most fees have to be paid up front and you can never be 100% certain of winning your case.
If your gross income is under £12000 you can apply to have the fees waived.

At the moment circumstances prevent me from being able to post information which would be of great value to those on here. In the near future circumstances will change and enable me to be more frank. In the meantime I would urge anyone to hold out for the full amount of their claim.

By all means continue to contact the media or any other party you feel will be able further assist us. Knowledge is power and the more that are aware of it the more poweful we become.

I wish everyone good luck in obtaining satisfaction from npower.

Cardew

Great Post DD

This subject couldn't be more suited to the 'class action*' that happens frequently in the USA.

a class action or a representative action is a form of lawsuit where a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court. This form of collective lawsuit originated in the United States and is still predominately a US phenomenon, at least the US variant of it.

DirectDebacle

For those of you that think the recent price rises were a tad steep, well you don't know how lucky you are.

Back in 2003 when times were tough and we had to get up half an hour before we woke up, we had to fetch gas in buckets from the North sea rigs.

31st March,2003 npower charged us 10.89p per day for hire of the bucket and 1.332p per kWh for gas. I think a bucket held 11.7 kwh so we had a lot of fetching and carrying to do.

Bucket hire cost £39.75 per annum and gas cost bucket loads.

1st April, 2003 things improved. npower started delivering gas and bucket hire was replaced with 4572kwh per annum. They only charged us 2.28p for the 4572 which worked out at £104.24 an increase of a mere 162.5% but it saved a load of money on buying new waders. Rest of gas was 1.380p per kWh so that only went up 3.6%. Average rise of 82.92%.

So you lot don't know your born. Anyone wanna buy a used pair of waders?

Sterling

Direct Debacle (post #665) – Thank you very much indeed, for addressing my concerns so fully, and I think we are in complete agreement on all the points I raised.

For example, we both think this matter requires all the publicity it can get (for the reasons we have separately mentioned in earlier posts). What I did not know until I read your reply was how many people and organisations you have written to, and how little response you generally received in return.

I did however suspect that the chances of success in that regard might slim unless people write similar letters/emails in large numbers. This thread had received over 26000 visits at the point when it occurred to me, that if all readers and contributors to this thread were to write or email (as you have done) that it might add some momentum to the cause. So I included that idea in posts #655 & #659. I still believe that would make a difference; and I for one am following your example here and I hope others decide to do the same; and I’m glad to see you agree with this in principle.

Turning to the matter generally, perhaps I may at this point introduce a couple of what I believe are two new aspects.

My first concerns the fact that Npower may be in a lot more serious trouble with Ofgem than many of us realise. I say this because, if the reports by Andrew Ellson and Mark Atherton of the Times (23 May & 12 June 2008) are correct, Npower have officially told Ofgem that there has been no overcharging of high tier units, claiming that a new tariff year begins at every price change. Now, I hope that not one of us is in any doubt that this excuse is false, and has no basis in Npower’s terms and conditions of supply whatever. In addition, I believe the onus would be upon Npower to prove what it claims – not for us or anyone else to disprove it.

These Times reporters clearly think its rubbish too, since the first report is headlined “The Time Warped World of Npower”, and very effectively debunks Npower for suggesting it as an answer.

Why should I mention this? Well it was only earlier this year that Severn Trent Water was fined £35million by Ofwat (the water companies’ regulator) for knowingly giving Ofwat misleading information regarding leakage data – to cover up its level of performance. (In any other country, the executives might have faced prison, by the way). Can you see any difference in Npower making false statements to Ofgem? I can’t.

If Npower claims this was an honest mistake, and that its management actually believed what they told Ofgem, then I do hope the same management explains (to Ofgem) why it has been shelling out “goodwill” payments. Although, this in itself may perhaps not be admissible as evidence of guilt, I have a feeling it can be used in rebuttal of Npower’s claim that it believed what it told Ofgem. And thus Npower are on the horns of a dilemma – does it allow itself to be taken to court, and presumably lose; or keep paying out “hush money” which even though without admission of liability, nevertheless reduces the credibility of its management with each new payment.

In addition, I gather from the Times (there are three separate stories/reports) that the complaint about Npower overcharging was not made by Energywatch to Ofgem until July of this year, and that it will take Ofgem several months to reach a conclusion. So at least this explains some of the delay.

In the meantime I propose to write to the chairman of the Parliamentary Business and Enterprise Select Committee (which seemingly oversees the energy business) to see if he would like to call upon Npower’s senior management to attend a hearing and be questioned by that select committee about Npower’s conduct. Questions I would love the committee to ask include

1. What is the total amount so far paid out in “goodwill payments” by Npower to affected customers?
2. How many customers received such payments?
3. What are Npower’s reasons for making such “goodwill payments”?
4. Will all affected Npower customers receive such a payment? – if not why not?

Maybe Ofgem should be asking these questions too.

There is also the complaint (I believe) that Ofgem are investigating into the conduct of Npower’s door-to-door sales people, which is also very serious. It doesn’t look quite so good for Npower’s management now, does it? Does anyone else see a pattern of declining credibility forming here?

My other point is this. I had thought of writing to Gordon Brown. Leaving aside his highly precarious position at No 10 at present - prime ministers often respond to such letters, especially if there are potentially 2-3 million votes involved. However, on this occasion we may have a problem.

You may remember a recent government announcement (which one, there are so many?) that something like a £1billion was to be provided to help improve the energy efficiency in the homes of the elderly etc. Where was that money to come from? Not our hard-pressed tax payers surely. Oh dear me no – those nice energy supply companies have agreed to foot the bill. Out of the kindness of their hearts? Not exactly – they will be allowed to recover every penny by - you’ve guessed it - increasing their prices. Does this look like stealth tax to you?

The trouble with this arrangement is that our beloved leader and his government have become far too cosy with the energy supply companies. It is no wonder that DD got such a pathetic response from the government department he wrote to.

Governments should keep an honest arms-length relationship with any business or business sector at all times. I really feel that it has fallen well short in that ideal here. So, that is why I don’t think I’ll include the prime minister on my list of people to write to. I was also disappointed not to see either opposition party pick up on this yet either.

But MPs have already expressed concern as to the scrapping of Energywatch. Could it be that in making such a change the Government has deliberately made it more difficult if not impossible for complaints like the one above to be brought to the attention of Ofgem in future? That would certainly make life easier for the energy supply companies. Although this is straying too far off the point, it does make you wonder.

backfoot

Another inspiring post. Well done Sterling.

I am not affected by this directly but I am a very interested observer. A vulnerable and elderly member of my family was the victim of a doorstep selling scam by Npower.I too was fobbed off for a very long time with false replies, incorrect information and an unwilingness to properly compensate.

I had to take the matter to various parties,my MP, Energywatch and the Code Manager of the AES. Eventually,after many months, I got success with an award of £250 for the victim and a full apology.They had earlier refused to budge at £50.

I agree that Ofgem have their card marked. I recently referred my case to them under the inquiry into Doorstep Selling and although they cannot directly use my information,they did tell me the details lodged with Energywatch will be taken into account. I got the impression from discussions that there would be a thorough investigation and serious consequences as this was a second inquiry on this topic.

The blatant stonewall presented by Npower in this sculpting issue is yet another example of how Npower's Management totally misjudge the power of consumer pressure and that they will pay a further penalty for their poor judgment is in no doubt.

Good luck to you all.:T

DirectDebacle

Sterling wrote: »

Direct Debacle (post #665)

Turning to the matter generally, perhaps I may at this point introduce a couple of what I believe are two new aspects.

Thank you for another interesting post, much of which I agree with. The points you raise would I think be worthy of starting a new thread on the operation of the energy industry in general and its' regulation. Maybe there already is one.

At the moment I do not think there is much chance of any significant media attention being given to this issue. I say this partly through my own experience of trying to raise the profile, which had some limited success in terms of responses. However I hope as many people as possible do continue to try to raise the profile of this issue. I am convinced there are still many more customers unaware of what has happened than those that are. 27000 hits on a thread is going some but not all of them will have been affected.

What will put this back in the media is fresh news, preferably bad, from npowers point of view.

I am convinced the way to achieve this is for individual customers to take direct action through the court. This would be good for several reasons.

I perhaps unwisely referred to 'hush money'. I used this as a casual turn of phrase and it was not intended as a derogatory remark towards those that had accepted 'goodwill' payments.

The real threat of litigation would show that you meant business. They would be faced with the choice of either meeting your claim in full (because you would not settle for less) or contesting the case. By contesting the case they would be at risk of not only being forced to meet your claim but also being found liable of wrongdoing. If they successfully defend the case then that doesn't help them too much either. They will have had to fully declare their position and that would leave them vulnerable in future cases. Winning one case does not prevent others from bringing action and the claimant will have the advantage of knowing what the defence is.

All things considered I think npower would offer to meet claims in full as long as they were legitimate. This in itself would be newsworthy and the publicity would increase the amount of subsequent claims.

I would hope this would produce a knock-on effect of a closer scrutiny of the regulatory system as you rightly advocate.

From little acorns...etc. One step at a time. The first step is to force npower to acknowledge the overcharging and then to recompense those that were victims of it. This will be no mean feat but it is achievable. Perhaps not on the first, second or third attempt but at some point it will happen. As I said they have to be lucky all of the time, we only have to be lucky once.

Customers should not be afraid of threatening court action. The initial outlay will be small (in legal costs terms) and the service of a summons may well be enough to persuade npower to meet your claim in full if agreement cannot be reached. This is the important bit. Do not settle on the first offer they make (first rule of negotiation) unless it is in full. Ensure that any offer covers your expenses for court costs etc and do not withdraw the summons until you have received payment.

The whole point of this thread is to try to get your money back.
By achieving the above it will wipe out the excess profits made from overcharging and hopefully prevent this particular practice from ever being repeated.
All this without ever stepping inside a courtroom.

If a case is contested and npower lose then the consequences for them could be far worse than they imagine. They would be vilified in the press and and in the wake of that maybe the authorities would be forced to review the regulation of the energy industry along the lines you suggest.

Through your posts I feel your anger and frustration, not just over the overcharging you have recently discovered you are a victim of but also the apparent lack of aid there is for a customer to obtain redress in a system that is industry friendly. I felt the same back in March when I found out. npower stonewalled me and Energywatch (at that time) declared it was not within their remit to investigate such a complaint.The same response was given by the Ombudsman. Ofgem do not investigate individuals cases and it didn't fall under Trading Standards umbrella either. After I calmed down I realised there was only one place I could go.

Once again I wish you and every other victim, of this injustice, success.

alleycat`

Hmm,

I've just phoned the complaints team to find out how my complaint is progressing.
The complaint was closed on the 17th and they have sent me a letter (which i have yet to receive).

They could not tell me the content of the letter and until i receive the letter they were not prepared to re-open the complaint and take it to stage 3 (whatever that might be).

The lady i spoke to has requested the letter be re-issued (i'm suspecting it is some standard letter about how scultping works).

I'm going to assume that this is not unusual tactics and that i'm going to have to waste yet more time in getting them to actually refund what they owe.

Edited this in:-

As I'm actually starting to confuse myself looking at this now so if someone lese can cast any eye over this and make sure i'm not daft:-

First Billing period
06/11/2006 up to 28/02/2007
2,200Kwh (at higher unit price of 5.068p)

28/02/2007 up to 26/04/2007
954Kwh (at higher unit price of 5.068p)

26/04/2007 up to 30/04/2007
58Kwh (at higher unit price of 5.068p)

30/04/2007 up to 20/07/2007
1,005 Kwh (at higher unit price of 5.068p)

20/07/2007 up to 04/09/2007
272Kwh (at higher unit price of 5.068p)

04/10/2007 up to 25/10/2007
636Kwh

I work that out at 5,125Kwh and it comes up almost 2 weeks short (of a full year).

The next period stretches from 25/10/2007 up to 04/01/2008 and comes out at 1,952Kwh (at 5.068p)

I've worked that out at 70 days at an average of 27.89Kwh (at 5.068p per Kwh).

So i think i could reasonably add a further 11 days (307Kwh) to the above.

That gives me a grand total of 5,432Kwh over a given year.

That equates to 860Kwh overcharging.

If my above maths is correct i find i start to struggle as the lower unit rate during that time frame was inconsistent.

From the 6th Novermber 2006 to the 30th of April 2007 it was 2.492p
Subsequenelty, until 04/01/2008 it was 1.915p.

So working from 06/11/2006 to 06/11/2007 i have trouble picking the bones out of how to work out how much i'm really owed back.

It looks like it should be somewhere in the region of £22 to £27 depending on how you work out where i was really overcharged.

regards,
--
Richard

DirectDebacle

These are the percentages/figures you need and calculate your year from 1/4/07-31/3/08 which will show the correct overcharging.

From April 2006 From Nov. 2007

Units Units
% of 4572 Per Month Per Day % of 4572 Per month Per Day

Apr. 9.8% 448.056 14.9352 Nov. 19.3% 882.396 29.413
May. 7.1% 324.612 10.471 Dec. 19.3% 882.396 28.464
Jun. 4.2% 192.024 6.4 Jan. 19.3% 882.396 28.464
Jul. 2.4% 109.728 3.539 Feb. 19.3% 882.396 30.427
Aug 2.4% 109.728 3.539 Mar 5.94% 271.577 8.761
Sep. 4.2% 192.024 6.4008 Apr 5.93% 271.120 9.037
Oct. 7.3% 333.756 10.766 May. 1% 45.720 1.475
Nov. 10.3% 470.916 15.697 Jun. 1% 45.720 1.524
Dec. 12.7% 580.644 18.730 Jul. 1% 45.720 1.475
Jan. 13.8% 630.936 20.352 Aug 1% 45.720 1.475
Feb. 13.6% 621.792 22.206 Sep. 1% 45.720 1.524
Mar. 12.2% 557.784 17.993 Oct. 5.93% 271.577 8.761

Sorry about the bunching but can't seem to get it in a more readable list somehow.


Period May 2007 to Oct 2007

381 for Each month

Per Day
May 12.29
Jun 12.7
Jul 12.29
Aug 12.29
Sep 12.7
Oct 12.29

What you need are the billing figures from 4/1/2008 to 31/3/2008.

Then work out your high rates from 1/4/2007 to 31/3/2008

From 28/2/07 - 30/04/07 you were charged 1012. Therefore April would be 1012-558 (March @ 558)=454
April 454
May 381
Jun 381
Jul 381
Aug 381
Sep 381
Oct 381
Nov 882
Dec 882

Sub total 4504
Jan 1st-Jan 4th (4 days @ 28.464) = 114 Therefore the 4572 was exceeded before the Jan price rise.

5th-31st Jan- 768kWh

kWh
Feb 882
Mar 272

Total 6540

This assumes you used enough units to take you into the lower tier each month (you probably did) and that npower applied the rates per month as per the above tables. kWh are rounded up/down to whole numbers. You need the figures from 4/1/2008 and all the overcharging will be after the Jan price rise so work out the £s using that price differential.

To work out odd dates eg 4/01/08-12/03/08 calculate for January 31-4 = 27
27 days*28.464 and round up/down
Add Feb = 882 then for March 12 days*8.761 round up/down and total them up.

DirectDebacle

One other point. They are allowed to charge up to a maximum of 4572 per annum. If on any of their bills they have charged you less than they should have (according to their tables) do not accept that they have undercharged you. The contract is no more than 4572 per annum, not that they have to charge you 4572. So if in any month (or year) on your bills the high units are less than they could have charged, then that is their choice.