NPower gas 'sculpting'

hvaghela

Hi DD

I've read your 3 step process to obtaining refund on a number of occasions. I've just phoned then and logged a compliant and obtained a compliant reference number. I hope to prepare my letter this weekend.

Now, some more advice please. Using my figures and your calculations in stage 2 I should have paid £554.77 inc VAT - however this has been calculated using the extra primary block units, ie more than 4572 units per year. If I re-calculated (using Sterling's excellent Ready reckoner) I come to a figure of £526.66 inc VAT. Which figure would you suggest I claim for in my letter?

Also in your letter template , from the other thread, "...I was a customer of yours during that time, 26/5/06 - 30/9/08." Where has the 30/9/08 date come from?
At this monent I am still a NPower customer.

Thanks again.

DirectDebacle

hvaghela wrote: »

Hi DD

I've read your 3 step process to obtaining refund on a number of occasions. I've just phoned then and logged a compliant and obtained a compliant reference number. I hope to prepare my letter this weekend.

Now, some more advice please. Using my figures and your calculations in stage 2 I should have paid £554.77 inc VAT - however this has been calculated using the extra primary block units, ie more than 4572 units per year. If I re-calculated (using Sterling's excellent Ready reckoner) I come to a figure of £526.66 inc VAT. Which figure would you suggest I claim for in my letter?

Also in your letter template , from the other thread, "...I was a customer of yours during that time, 26/5/06 - 30/9/08." Where has the 30/9/08 date come from?
At this monent I am still a NPower customer.

Thanks again.

Hi,

Using your post in the 'how to' I showed the last date of your bill in the Stage 3 letter as 30/9/08 as an illustration for someone who was no longer an npower customer. I was using your original post as an example, rather than doing your whole claim for you. I would have needed a little more information than was in your post for that.:D

The point you raise about the 4572 Stage 2 requires some further explanation. Smart of you to spot it.

There is an argument you would be having 'two bites of the cherry'. In Stage 1 you are claiming the the cost of the low units which were incorrectly charged at the high rate.

Now in the Stage 2 recalc you wish to make the same adjustment, that is transfer these additional high rates from the high rate total to the low rate total and then do the sums. Wouldn't you be seeking to be compensated twice for these units? First at Stage 1 and then Stage 2.

In the 'how to' I excluded your last three bills from the re-calc example. I have part explained it above but the other reason is npowers' Terms and Conditions. I ceased to be a customer of theirs at the beginning of August 08. I am not up to date with the literature they have sent out since then.

I know that sometime (I am almost certain it was 1/7/2008) they changed the terms and conditions on their website. Notably the change was that they now published the monthly Primary Block units charged as from 1/11/2007. I do not think it could be construed as any sort of proper notification of changes. They never sent me any written notification of this unilateral change. Experience tells me they would say that they did in your case and you were properly notified.

If they sent you a proper written notification within the allowed time limits explaining the way they charged for the Primary Block rates, then for a re-calc you will have to use the date of change as a cut off for the recalc.

In my case they tried this and claimed I had been notified in early November 2007 of the 1/11/2007 change. I hadn't but in any event my recalc claim was based on the fact that they had never properly notified me of the way they charged for gas on or after 1/4/2003. Therefore all changes after this date should not have been made or enforced.

Assuming that

1. Before you joined npower the Principal Terms of your contract were not explained to you and/or

2. Changes they made to the way they charged you for gas have not been notified to you, then I would submit a Stage 2 claim from the date you joined to present. It will only be a claim and they can either pay it in full, negotiate with you or reject it.

I am sure when they see your claim they'll realise they have no chance and just pay it:rolleyes:

I did another re-calc of your bills.That is all your bills as in your original post.

You were billed for 12855 Primary block and 18869 Follow On units.

Total incl VAT £1070.90. This may not agree with the bills you have in front of you but can't be far out.

Re-calculating them at the 06 price when you joined it totals £762.23 incl.


If a recalc is done adjusting the 1873 wrongly billed high rate units as per Stage 1 in the 'how to' example (year 1/4/07/-31/3/08) the total is £733.24.

Therefore you have these claims to consider

Your Stage 1 claim = £59.43
Difference between what you paid as billed and should have paid as billed, at 06 prices = £308.67
Total £368.10

or

a 'two bites' claim, 10982 high and 20742 low, re-calcs to £733.24 incl.
Difference = £337.66
Stage 1 £59.43
Total claim £397.09

Add costs/expenses to the totals.

I can't tell you which way to go. I didn't go the 'two bites' route. AFAIK I am the only one so far to have tried this Stage 2 type of claim. I stuck to my guns and they eventually capitulated rather than test it in court. I rather think they couldn't care less about about a difference of £30 or so on this type of claim. What they desperately want to avoid is have a court decide in a claimants favour.

At the moment there is no case law, test cases or precedents to go by. We are submitting individual and personal claims on a 'suck it and see' basis. My advice is based on my own experience and as how I think a claim should be conducted. Others may disagree and should follow their own instincts as to what is best for them. This situation suits npower as they can offer anyone as little as they think they can get away with. I wonder how many £50.00 goodwill payments have been accepted by customers whose claim should have been close to yours.

That is as far as I am prepared to go on this thread. PM me if you want more specific advice in making your claim, apart from general queries that would benefit the thread from being aired openly.

I applaud your determination and wish you good luck.

DLW46

Hi all

New member so please be gentle.Cant believe I haven't visited this site sooner.
Have been going through this post for a few days as I have been with npower since Aug 2006.I've managed to go through all my bills since then and was hoping someone may be able to look over my calculations before I go any further.
These are taken from my bills

Period__________________Prim__pence__Sec__Pence
31/08/2006_01/10/2006__202___3.968__557___2.068
01/10/2006_09/11/2006__465___4.412__1375__2.492
09/11/2006_01/12/2006__347___4.412__2066__2.492
01/12/2006_28/02/2007__1797__4.412__9282__2.492
28/02/2007_30/04/2007__727___4.412__0_____2.492
30/04/2007_28/05/2007__252___4.412__0_____1.915
28/05/2007_06/06/2007__110___4.412__238___1.915
06/06/2007_20/08/2007__929___4.412__329___1.915
20/08/2007_21/08/2007__11____4.412__1147__1.915
21/08/2007_01/11/2007__895___4.412__1671__1.915
01/11/2007_21/11/2007__591___4.412__510___1.915
21/11/2007_04/01/2008__1261__4.412__2174__1.915
04/01/2008_19/02/2008__1346__6.688__2423__1.99
19/02/2008_22/05/2008__880___6.688__4572__1.99
22/05/2008_21/08/2008__136___6.688__2739__1.99
21/08/2008_28/08/2008__11____6.688__52____1.99
28/08/2008_19/11/2008__910___8.36___1876___2.488
19/11/2008_17/03/2009__3090__8.36___6906___2.488


I have used the year starting 1/04/2007 to 31/03/2008 (is this period right)and I get a primary units charged as 6404
01/04/07_30/04/07 433 (calculated using sterlings table)
30/04/07_28/05/07 252
28/05/07_06/06/07 110
06/06/07_20/08/07 929
20/08/07_21/08/07 11
21/08/07_01/11/07 895
01/11/07_21/11/07 591
21/11/07_04/01/08 1261
04/01/07_19/02/08 1346
19/02/08_31/03/08 576 (calculated using sterlings table

Therefore 6404-4572=1832 units overcharged at the primary rate.

Is this correct??
If so can someone expalin how to work out the over charge as I can't get my head around the maths for working out the amount, due to the pricing changes.

Many Thanks

Sterling

DLW46 wrote: »

Therefore 6404-4572=1832 units overcharged at the primary rate.

Is this correct??
If so can someone expalin how to work out the over charge as I can't get my head around the maths for working out the amount, due to the pricing changes.

Hi DLW46, and welcome

I haven’t yet had time to check your figures, but you look as though you know what you are doing thus far. As for the bit you are stuck on, you might try looking at my post #1048. I think this will provide the method you require.

As for the choice of a year for a maximum claim figure – I’m afraid it is a matter of trial and error plus some educated guesswork – for now at any rate.

Good luck, and please keep us all posted on your progress with your claim generally.

DirectDebacle

DLW46 wrote: »

Hi all

New member so please be gentle.Cant believe I haven't visited this site sooner.
Have been going through this post for a few days as I have been with npower since Aug 2006.I've managed to go through all my bills since then and was hoping someone may be able to look over my calculations before I go any further.
These are taken from my bills

Period__________________Prim__pence__Sec__Pence
31/08/2006_01/10/2006__202___3.968__557___2.068
01/10/2006_09/11/2006__465___4.412__1375__2.492
09/11/2006_01/12/2006__347___4.412__2066__2.492
01/12/2006_28/02/2007__1797__4.412__9282__2.492
28/02/2007_30/04/2007__727___4.412__0_____2.492
30/04/2007_28/05/2007__252___4.412__0_____1.915
28/05/2007_06/06/2007__110___4.412__238___1.915
06/06/2007_20/08/2007__929___4.412__329___1.915
20/08/2007_21/08/2007__11____4.412__1147__1.915
21/08/2007_01/11/2007__895___4.412__1671__1.915
01/11/2007_21/11/2007__591___4.412__510___1.915
21/11/2007_04/01/2008__1261__4.412__2174__1.915
04/01/2008_19/02/2008__1346__6.688__2423__1.99
19/02/2008_22/05/2008__880___6.688__4572__1.99
22/05/2008_21/08/2008__136___6.688__2739__1.99
21/08/2008_28/08/2008__11____6.688__52____1.99
28/08/2008_19/11/2008__910___8.36___1876___2.488
19/11/2008_17/03/2009__3090__8.36___6906___2.488


I have used the year starting 1/04/2007 to 31/03/2008 (is this period right)and I get a primary units charged as 6404
01/04/07_30/04/07 433 (calculated using sterlings table)
30/04/07_28/05/07 252
28/05/07_06/06/07 110
06/06/07_20/08/07 929
20/08/07_21/08/07 11
21/08/07_01/11/07 895
01/11/07_21/11/07 591
21/11/07_04/01/08 1261
04/01/07_19/02/08 1346
19/02/08_31/03/08 576 (calculated using sterlings table

Therefore 6404-4572=1832 units overcharged at the primary rate.

Is this correct??
If so can someone expalin how to work out the over charge as I can't get my head around the maths for working out the amount, due to the pricing changes.

Many Thanks

Or 1053

DirectDebacle

DLW46

Thanks DD
Just wondering how we came to such different figures.
Did I make an error when using the tables to calculate the part billing at the start end end periods.

Thanks

DirectDebacle

DLW46 wrote: »

Thanks DD
Just wondering how we came to such different figures.
Did I make an error when using the tables to calculate the part billing at the start end end periods.
Thanks

No your post was perfect. Almost too good to be true.

Your last 2 bills high units = 1922
1832 of these were incorrectly charged so the cost of them are at the price applicable to those two bills.

emh_2

OMG this all looks so complicated. :eek:

I have been with npower on their basic tariff for over 9 years, for both gas and electric. I am going to go through your step by step guide (thanks for doing this) once I have asked npower for a copy of my bills for the last 9 years (wish me luck) but I think its got to be worth it.

I may need your help to guide me through it,,,;)

DirectDebacle

emh wrote: »

OMG this all looks so complicated. :eek:

I have been with npower on their basic tariff for over 9 years, for both gas and electric. I am going to go through your step by step guide (thanks for doing this) once I have asked npower for a copy of my bills for the last 9 years (wish me luck) but I think its got to be worth it.

I may need your help to guide me through it,,,;)

Good for you and welcome to the thread. The bills you are likely to need will be from 1/4/2003, unless you really want 9 years of bills, ask for the bills from 1/1/2003 to date.

There is a lot in the guide to take in all at once so take it each stage at a time before moving to the next one. Come to this thread if you need help with any part of it. The start of your battle is to get the bills. Make a request in writing and send recorded delivery.

Good luck.