Dog on dog aggression

kaya

another way of looking at it is your putting all the pressure of running the household on one dog, because you treat it preferentialy it assumes pack leader status (ranking above you in some instances), in the wild it would rely on its basic instincts and act accordingly to different situations, but its shut in a house in a domestic situation and consequently confused, its been given the very important role of pack leader and then told that it cant act on basic doggy instinct as it would in the wild, think how confusing that would be?, once you establish yourself as pack leader you take away all of that confusion and frustration, i have never met a dog who isnt happier as part of the pack than it would be struggling everyday with all those confusing decisions and responsibility as well as trying to hold its status over the younger dog, your dog will be better behaved when you remove all that responsibility, as for the agression i would put them together in the back garden and keep a good hosepipe/lots of buckets of cold water on hand, establish yourself as pack leader and they should fall in line, its your house that you allow them to live in and you are top dog

snipzychick

Guinea wrote: »

I have had the older one spayed, not the younger one and this is not going to happen.

I would say the problem is right here. Your older dog will sense that the younger one is intact, thus making her top dog, which is why the aggression will not stop unless she is spayed. As your older dog will continue to fight to get her status restored.

kaya

all the answers here agree on one thing, your older dog sees itself as dominant-thats your problem.
The confusion seems to be over pack order
You are part of that pack, there are only two places you can be in the pack, the leader or the sub-ordinate, there are no other positions available
there can only be one pack leader
Do you think that should be a dog?
Establish yourself as pack leader and you leave nothing for the other pack members to squabble over as the position is now firmly occupied
your older dog cannot see itself as "top dog" if the postion isnt there to have
i know this seems like a nightmare situation for you at the moment but it isn't difficult to resolve at all, by treating them equally and being the one in control they will both feel more secure and be a lot happier, getting the younger !!!!! speyed will change nothing in the pack order, dogs are happiest when they know there place

pboae

There is no evidence that human behaviour has any great effect on hierarchy within dogs. I think the emphasis people are placing on that is misleading. Ensuring the older one gets attention/food first may add a little fuel to the problem, but it is not the underlying cause, and stopping it will not defuse the situation.

Dogs work things out between them in their own way, the problem is, we may not like the soultion they come up with.

kaya

there is also no evidence that human behaviour has no effect on hierarchy in dogs either, not sure about the grammer in that line?
im sorry if it comes across as arrogant but this seems like basic stuff to me, how can you expect your dog to be able to dispaly leadership qualities and head the pack when it lives in your house, under your rules, eats when you feed it, goes out when you take it etc..
your expecting a dog to behave as it would in the wild but cageing it up in your life/house and expecting it to behave under your rules----surely you can see the conflict there for the animal? i would certainly find living under those conditions difficult

Guinea_2

orlao wrote: »

Hi Guinea

Just a couple of questions....what breed/size are the dogs?
Does the the younger dog back down when there's a bust up? or will she battle back?
How badly do they fight? Is it a lot of noise or are there injuries?
What did the behavorist recommend?

In the short term, it might be better to crate one or both when you aren't there rather than muzzle one of them....

TBH, when two ladies are fighting it's really hard to resolve but I'm sure that it can be helped at least!!!

They're both cocker spaniels sp relatively small dogs. The younger one always backs down. The older dog will sometimes puncture although often will just grab and then I will pull her off and put the muzzle on.
The behaviourist suggested no more sofa, upstairs and our bed which I stopped. Said always give the older one attention, food; etc. first which we did. Suggested using water, rattle bottle but these are to stop and not prevent.
They have always been crated although when we're out the older one has the run of the dining room and kitchen and the younger one is crated with toys; etc.

Guinea_2

pboae wrote: »

You need to keep them apart when you aren't there. As the younger one matures this is going to get worse. As the others have said, aggression between b!tches is serious. The old saying is that dogs fight to breed and b!tches fight to breathe, there is a lot of truth in it.

Having the elder dog spayed and the younger one intact is going to make matters a lot worse. I know you say you won't spay the younger one, but I hope you aren't planning to breed from her. There is every chance the elder dog will kill the pups, and if she doesn't the younger one may well do it herself if she feels threatened enough.

It is possible to get two fighting b!tches to live together, but it's not easy, and you may be looking at long term management instead. Keeping one muzzled indefinitely is not really an answer, and in any case dogs should never be left muzzled unattended.

Can you get the behaviourist back for more advice?

Finally, it's hard to see from your pic, but it looks like you may have c0ckers, and they are notorious for the b!tches being overly dominant.

The older one is never muzzled when we're not there as the younger one is always crated when we're away.
I have repeatedly asked the behaviourist for more advice and she has said to spay the younger one. We've contacted another behaviourist and the vet who said this may help but you can't guarantee it so I really don't want to particularly as I 'show' the younger one.

Guinea_2

shoppaholic_returns wrote: »

I know its of no help to you now, but I was advised NEVER ,never to keep 2 !!!!!es together,as when I was looking for a puppy we could not decide between two !!!!!es and were giong to take them both, but the breeder said we couldnt ,althought she would have loved to sell us a !!!!! and a dog, she felt 2 !!!!!es would be too aggressive with each other.
I really hope you can sort this out, what about visiting the vet for advice on a good non rip off dog behaviourist??

HAve been to the vets on several occasions and she suggested DAP sprays and diffusors. Also said for me to see a behaviourist which I had already done BEFORE seeing the vets!

When we went to view the younger dog the breeder (well known breeder I add!) suggested to us it was better to get a second b*tch rather than a dog as with the dog we'd have to pull them apart in a different way!! LOoking back I'd rather do that...I'm a lover and not a fighter!!:rotfl:

Guinea_2

kaya wrote: »

"The older one always gets food, toys, attention before the younger one."

there lies your problem
you must treat them both equally, your giving the older dog privilages over the younger one and re-inforcing its status as top dog(it was there first after all), you must treat them equally if they are to have equal pack status, i would be getting a refund from the behaviourist if he didnt pick up on that one, show no favouritism at all and you see see pretty quick results

edited to add that my famialy has always kept/bred dogs, we have never had a problem with !!!!!es being agressive towards each other, apart from the miserable one who just hated everybody!

Sorry but both the behaviourist AND the vet told us to give everything to the older dog first to secure it's position as top dog over the younger dog!

Guinea_2

snipzychick wrote: »

I would say the problem is right here. Your older dog will sense that the younger one is intact, thus making her top dog, which is why the aggression will not stop unless she is spayed. As your older dog will continue to fight to get her status restored.

The older one has only recently been spayed and the aggression was evident before this happened.