Complaint AA Breakdown Renewal without notification

Veryannoyed_3

Thanks to Chris1973 for outlining his problem with the AA which is identical to mine. I am absolutely incensed at the AA's behaviour and am determined to get my £20 admin fee back.

I know that you are only supposed to keep data on someone for as long as it is needed and I wonder whether the AA has exceeded its legal authority in keeping people's details when they no longer have a product with them, rather than cancelling them off their system.

I am going to find out from the Information Commissioner.

Fair_Play_2

Veryannoyed wrote: »

Fair Play, my breakdown cover hasn't been suspended, the AA acknowledged in a letter to me that it could not be renewed due to them not being able to get funds from my cancelled credit card. So according to the info the AA sent me in response to my complaint the cover had ended and if I wanted to renew it the onus was on me to contact them with a new card number. I didn't receive this letter from them and certainly didn't phone them to renew it.

However, at some time in the past I must have bought either breakdown, travel, home or some other insurance from the AA and used my bank debit card and the AA still had those details on file and just helped themselves from my bank account. If I did so then it must have been many years ago because I don't remember it and I certainly would never have given permission for them to either keep my account details on file or to take money from my account without my express permission.

I am extremely angry and contacting their CEO by email tonight to ask for my admin fee back and an assurance that they have removed all my details and bank account numbers from the AA system and any other organisation with which they are linked.
LizC

Your anger is perfectly understandable. It really is a disgrace.

Most disturbing of all is this clause in their Terms and Conditions for Breakdown Cover: "Please note that if you pay under a continuous payment authority and your account and/or card details change, we will approach your card provider/bank for, or receive from your card provider bank, updated details to help continue to provide the services you have requested."

In other words: there's NO escape! (cue evil laugh)

That bit's not in the section titled "Autorenewal", by the way - it's a couple of paragraphs down in "Changes to your Personal Details". Their Car Insurance Terms and Conditions booklet says much the same thing.

Until I read up on this recently, I had no idea that a continuous payment authority begins the moment you hand over your bank card number (whether you give express consent or not) - and that it applies equally to credit and debit cards. (Confusingly, the AA refers only to credit cards in relation to continous payment - in their Terms and Conditions and on the aforementioned Moneybox Live radio programme.) Of course most debit cards now run on Visa (mine used to be a Switch/Maestro card, but HSBC changed it a few years ago), which possibly makes this a grey area - bearing in mind that Visa is not based in Britain and was, I believe, traditionally associated with credit cards.

I swear I shall never give my debit card number to anyone ever again. The AA was the first and it will definitely be the last. I don't like direct debits either, but at least there is some protection with that system if it all goes tits-up. With CPA, there is none.

Incidentally, I've read that credit card companies are honour-bound to act on CPAs, even if the account associated with that card is closed - never mind the card itself being changed. This can result in people building up bad credit records. Have you checked with your former credit card provider to see if they have received any requests from the AA (or anyone else) for payments? And is your debit card with the same bank/provider that your credit card was with?

As you had already warned your bank not to authorise this payment, I feel they should be chasing the AA for the money - not you. But I don't suppose you have any evidence of this warning, because you gave it over the phone?

I've just read the article "Recurring Payments: Beware setting up regular payments from credit or debit cards" on this very website. Most interesting. I wish I had read it sooner...

chris1973

I think the 'average' review given for the 'AA' on the various consumer review sites speaks volumes. Note the customer satisfaction review ratings for 'customer service' and 'value for money'

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews11802.html

Obviously, this issue is not isolated either

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1525695

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?202834-AA-unwanted-automatic-renewal-charged-to-cancelled-credit-card!!

http://www.hypermiler.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=520

http://www.bitterwallet.com/if-you-want-to-ride-with-the-aa-you-can-never-get-out/42998

https://zone.theaa.com/forums/thread/827/#post2894

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/jan/22/aa-membership-renewal

There are also 100's of others brought up by Google

You really can't put a price on customer feedback and word of mouth recommendations...............

Fair_Play_2

It's rather telling that one of those links mentioned by chris1973 quotes a link to BBC Radio 4's Moneybox Live programme from 2002. The article ("Warning over credit trap") is about the problems with CPAs in general. That was NINE YEARS AGO! It's difficult to be optimistic that this issue will be sorted any time soon. In the meantime, thousands of customers will continue to be fleeced by the likes of the AA.

The Guardian article is interesting, because it says: "The [AA] has a clause within its terms and conditions that allows it to renew your contract each year unless you terminate." But I dispute this assertion. The relevant Terms and Conditions are as follows (bold = my emphasis):

Autorenewal
[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light][FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]12. If Membership is paid annually by Direct Debit or Continuous Credit Card and the payer has agreed to allow us to collect the renewal premium automatically each year, then unless we hear to the contrary, your Membership will be automatically renewed at the end of each year. A reminder will be sent to advise of the cost of AA Membership, and any changes to Terms & Conditions that will take effect, at renewal.[/FONT]

[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]The Car Insurance terms are, for some reason, much more long-winded (and somewhat contradictory - plus they contain a couple of typos), but the spirit is exactly the same. The AA itself has emboldened the first paragraph, so the underlined bits are my emphasis:[/FONT]

[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]Automatic Renewal[/FONT]
[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]If you’re paying through our instalment account over 12 months, at the end of each 12-month period we will write to confirm if we can automatically renew your cover. If we are able to do this, unless we hear from you, your cover will automatically be renewed to the insurer as specified in our letter. We will send you an important notice of any changes that apply to your policy booklet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light][FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light][FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]We will advise you of the annual amount and the new monthly instalments that you will have to pay and any changes to cover will take effect at renewal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]If you’re paying by credit card and have agreed to allow us to collect the renewal payment automatically each year, then unless we hear from you, we’ll renew your cover automatically at the end of the 12-month period. Prior to doing this we will send written reminder of the amount that you will have to pay and an important notice of any changes that apply to your policy booklet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Frutiger 45 Light,Frutiger 45 Light]If you pay by Continuous Annual Payment on a credit or debit card, and your payment details change, your card provider may provide us with updated card details We will use these new details at your next renewal in order to help prevent any interruption to your cover.[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
The meaning is clear in both: they will only renew automatically IF they have previously been given permission to do so by the customer, and even then they will first write to advise the customer of the amount of money due to be taken from his bank account. Customers to whom this has not happened, and who wish to dispute their renewal, should quote the above terms in a letter to the AA - sent by recorded delivery!

I have to say that on the odd occasion when I've had to call out the AA I've found them to be very helpful and yes, "very nice men". I cannot fault the quality of their roadside assistance; it's their customer service, the administration side of things, which is shoddy and deceitful... When I took out my car insurance last year, the girl asked for my email address. I asked why they needed that. She said, "So we can email your insurance documents to you". I said I would prefer to receive my documents by post. She reassured me by saying, "In that case, we'll send your documents by post and only use your email address for marketing our products and services to you". Feeling reassured by this, I gave her my email address. Later that day, I received an email instructing me to register with the AA online so that I could log in to view and print my car insurance documents... AARGH!!!!! You just feel like banging your head against a brick wall when dealing with these large companies!! I phoned to explain their mistake. The man was helpful and said he would post my documents to me, and that the £25 "duplicate documents" fee would be waived in my case (I should think so too, I thought!). I also managed to get him to delete my email address from their system. All well and good. But when the documents arrived, I was annoyed to find a large diagonal "DUPLICATE" watermark across every page. Rub it in, why don't you!!! :mad:

The Certificate of Motor Insurance is an important legal document, and I really don't see how brokers and insurers have the nerve to expect US, the customers, to print them for ourselves. Why on earth should we have to do THEIR job for them?! They ask for your email address without even telling you what it's for! Swinton also tried that trick with me recently, when I renewed my dad's car insurance for him. I pretended that I didn't know his email address. The girl said, "Never mind - we'll post his documents to him". I wasn't sure why she wanted an email address, but the penny dropped as soon as she said that! So if you don't want to have to print your own documents, don't give these companies your email address - it's that simple.

Veryannoyed_3

I had a phone call from the AA this morning apologising for my problems and saying that I would be getting a full refund, including the £20 admin fee they haven't so far refunded.

Their explanation was that after I wrote to complain they realised that a number of other people had made similar complaints about not receiving renewal notices so they investigated and found a computer problem which affected a number of customers who would also be getting full refunds.

I've asked them for an assurance that they have taken my details and bank card number off their system and they said they had, however, they are still going to refund this £20 to my bank card so I will be writing to them to make sure they do remove all the payment details.

I'm still extremely annoyed about the hassle and unfortunately as a result I'm unlikely to be an AA customer in future. What annoyed me most was their customer service representative's insistence when I phoned initially to complain, that I must have received their letter because they had sent it. When a firm insists that it must always be the customer's fault then that's good enough for me to take my business elsewhere.

Fair_Play_2

I'm so glad you've been successful, veryannoyed. Must be such a weight off your shoulders. I'm surprised they admit they've had computer problems. I do hope they get it sorted.

I've looked into the AA's competitors, such as the RAC and Green Flag, and they still seem to be the best (of a bad bunch). So I can't see myself leaving them, unfortunately. Where do you think you'll go to once your inclusive cover expires?

I would definitely put your deletion of personal and bank details request in writing, sent by recorded delivery, and addressed to the AA's Chief Executive, Andrew Strong (he'll no doubt pass it to some secretary to deal with, but at least the man at the top will have seen it). A few weeks after you get the reply, call them to say you want to check that your details are up to date. Give your old membership number when asked to do so. If your account comes up on the operator's screen, you'll know they've been telling porkies...

Veryannoyed_3

Fair_Play wrote: »

I'm so glad you've been successful, veryannoyed. Must be such a weight off your shoulders. I'm surprised they admit they've had computer problems. I do hope they get it sorted.

I've looked into the AA's competitors, such as the RAC and Green Flag, and they still seem to be the best (of a bad bunch). So I can't see myself leaving them, unfortunately. Where do you think you'll go to once your inclusive cover expires?

I would definitely put your deletion of personal and bank details request in writing, sent by recorded delivery, and addressed to the AA's Chief Executive, Andrew Strong (he'll no doubt pass it to some secretary to deal with, but at least the man at the top will have seen it). A few weeks after you get the reply, call them to say you want to check that your details are up to date. Give your old membership number when asked to do so. If your account comes up on the operator's screen, you'll know they've been telling porkies...

All very useful info Fair Play, thanks for that.

I usually keep a car for two years and the warranty covers it during that time and the garage usually pays for either AA or RAC membership under a block policy presumably funded by the car manufacturer. So there is still a possibility I may have dealings with the AA again.

I did once use them to change a flat tyre and they were fine, there is nothing wrong with their actual service, just the hopeless admin side of it.

Good luck to everyone else with a similar problem. It sounded to me as though anyone with recent problems is going to be refunded in full due to the computer error.

The_AA_Company_Representative

Veryannoyed wrote: »

Good luck to you Fair Play, do report back how you get on.

It's now 12 days since the AA promised to put part of this money ie £34 back in my bank account and so far - no joy. However, I am sticking out for the full amount and will be using the county court if I don't get it, based on the "proof" they sent me last week in which they said they couldn't automatically renew my cover because my credit card was no longer valid.

From what you say, I presume the way they took this money from my bank account was because I had previously given my bank debit card number in connection with some previous unrelated transaction with them and they must have trawled their accounts files where they still had it stored.

If I find that is the case I will also be contacting the information commissioner to ask whether it's acceptable for firms to debit from any other customer bank account if they can't get the money from the designated source. I will also check out whether they can hold bank account details indefinitely when customers no longer have house / motor insurance or whatever it was they bought with that debit card.
LizC

Hello there. You might like to give the AA a call to discuss this - the telephone number to use is 0844 209 0556. In the meantime, I would like to clarify that the AA does not use payment details given for one product to automatically renew another.

Veryannoyed_3

The_AA_Company_Representative wrote: »

Hello there. You might like to give the AA a call to discuss this - the telephone number to use is 0844 209 0556. In the meantime, I would like to clarify that the AA does not use payment details given for one product to automatically renew another.

You most certainly DID do this, and no, any communication will be in writing.

How do I know what you did? Because I received a copy of a letter from your customer relations dept which told me that the AA was unable to renew my subscription as my credit card xxxx xxxx xxxx 1234 was no longer valid and if I wanted to renew my cover I had to phone the AA.

This was correct. It was an old credit card which I had cancelled.

Neither did I phone the AA to renew my cover for one very good reason. Until your representative sent this letter to me in response to my complaint, I had not received any notification of renewal.

What did happen was that £54.50 was taken from my bank account and the only way you could have done that was if you had my bank card number on your files. So you clearly held TWO card numbers for me, one for my old credit card and the other for a current bank account. Whether you like it or not, these are indisputable facts and backed up by the correspondence that the AA has provided to me.

I will be writing to the CEO to ask two things.
1. For an explanation of the issues I have outlined above;
2. For an assurance that ALL my details, including old and current bank / credit cards, and my address, are removed from the AA's accounts and marketing systems.

If the AA continue to deny this has happened I am going to contact the Information Commissioner to find out if it is legal for firms to keep a customer's bank details on file and to use them for the purpose for which mine were used.

The documents the AA has sent me show that this MUST be the case, there is no other explanation.

clocKwork

Hi, thanks for the info on the AA, I was about to join
as you can collect nectar points in doing so however
when I filled there online form in I noticed the payment options and there were two...The first was Pay yearly by card and the second pay yearly from direct debit and guess what NO one off payment option
I wonder why mmmm well I certainly wont be joining
them nectar points or not they sound like loads of hassle to me :think: