How can people be so greedy?

lady_noluck

I'd like to have a little rant now. Why, at 24 years old do you think you HAVE to own a house? You chose to go to Uni, you chose to get into debt. I didn't have that choice because I was forced to work at 16 or I would have been sleeping on the streets. So I worked, saved up a deposit and bought a shared ownership place at 18. (With a wage of £7300 per annum!!) I'm now 28 and own 2 houses, one of which I rent out. Does that make me greedy? No, it means I made a decisions to put my living arrangements before my education. For that, yes I am on the property ladder but I am also stuck in a mind numbingly dull job just so I can pay my morgage each month with no prospect of getting very high up the "career ladder" due to my lack of education! And now, because of having a morgage, I can't afford to go to Uni so i'm stuck in cr*ppy jobs that blind monkeys could do.

You on the other hand, may be renting a property but you have the opportunity to go into better paid jobs (my salary is £17,100 and has been for 4 years unlike your £22k) and once you have a decent salary you can get a decent morgage. I also have £10k worth of debts but due to morgages and salary it's getting paid off very slowly.

It seems quite simple to me. "Youth" today have a choice. Career ladder or property ladder. You can't have both and i'm sick of reading about "youths" who think it's their right to. I'm bitter about not having the chance to go to Uni and get some qualifications I could use but that's the hand that was dealt to me.
Quit moaning and be grateful you've got your health.

Gingernutmeg

lady_noluck, surely your argument works the other way too? Nobody made you buy two houses - that was your decision and if you have to work in a job you don't like to pay the mortgage then that's your decision too. If you hate it that much and you're so bitter about not going to uni, then sell the houses and go. I appreciate what you're saying but you're saying the same as the OP but in reverse IYSWIM - don't criticise him/her for realising that what they did might not have been the best decision, after all, you seem to be in the same boat and are bitter about the choices you've made.

I made the choice to go to uni as a mature student - I could have used my savings as a deposit, but I didn't. That was my decision and I live with whatever consequences that may bring, namely that I can't afford to buy at the moment. I made a choice to go to uni because I want a job that's interesting and challenging. I was sick of working 60 hour weeks in catering and still not having enough to live on, and for me, uni was the right decision. I don't think it's my 'right' to have a good job and a nice home, but I don't see why I shouldn't work towards that, regardless of what choices I've made. I don't think that just because I've been a student I somehow 'deserve' more than other people, and I think it's a bit misguided to say that all students think that, just because they chose a path in life that you didn't. At the end of the day, if you want to go to uni there's nothing beyond your own chosen circumstances that are stopping you - you're as equally as entitled to the funding that is available and nobody will stop you getting that.

Idiophreak

Man, I could write a *long* post on this subject, but I'll try and keep it as short as I can

I completely sympathise with most of the OP. I'm in a similar situation - I'm 24, finished uni a couple of years back, just this week finished paying back my postgrad loan, still got most of the other loan outstanding.

So, my thoughts:

1) The student loan. I wholeheartedly disagree with people being charged to go to university on *every* possible level. Anyone who thinks that charging people for university is good because "why should the taxpayers pay for your education" is taking an *incredibly* short sighted view of the world. Increasing skills in the workplace means everyone benefits. And a large number of graduates will pay *far* more in additional tax over their lifetimes than the cost to the taxpayer of the study in the first place. I also think the current Studet Loan system is a total rip off.

That having been said, it's not what you'd call a "real debt" at this point - it's more of a tax...just write off the £50 or whatever it is you pay per month as another bit of tax you pay and forget about it. Try and focus, instead, on the increased earnings you should get from your degree. (statistically, you'll actually earn markedly less, certainly in the first part of your career, than someone without a degree, but I digress)

2) I am sick to death of people saying "well it wasn't easy for me when I was your age either" - I get this from my parents generation a lot. How they can't see the growth in house prices relative to the growth in wages is beyond me. Anyway, again - as others have said...you don't need to buy...renting's an option, especially given the rather uncertain house prices at the moment.

3) Presumably OP's paying something in rent already, so it's not like the mortgage will be a wholly new cost each month - only the difference to make up.

I really also have to comment on this idea that young people either go to uni just because they want a degree, or worse, feel they're entitled to it or to have everything "on a plate". This just isn't the case, in the slightest. For a lot of the better jobs out there, you just need to have a degree.

I agree as much as anyone that most jobs could be done without a degree, but that's neither here nor there. Anyone that wants to have any kind of decent income these days needs to look at doing at least a first degree. As someone else pointed out earlier - an increasing number of graduates are coming out with their degrees in Surf Studies, Painting by Numbers etc and applying for the temp jobs, the short-term contracting gigs - the only kind of jobs that 16 or 18 year old school leavers would have had a chance at getting before...to get the experience they need to rival degree educated folks. It makes not having a degree harder and it's only getting worse (as we drive toward the fateful 50%)

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible for someone to skip uni and make a success of things, of course it isn't...but I am saying that it wouldn't work for everyone. The same is true with part-time studies and other "alternate" ways of getting a degree - they work for some people, but others will be better off going the "normal" route. What I'm saying is that there are a lot of people who either aren't educated as to "other ways" of doing their degrees, decide that the "normal" route is the best for them, or else just get railroaded into that route by their school/parents/piers. It's not through fault of their own, it's not out of laziness, lack of work ethic, or anything else, it's just the best way for them to try and get on with life.

So, someone goes down the "normal" route of doing a straight-up 3 year BSc with a view to improving their employability - they gather *at least* 10k debt (which, when you think about it, is 1k for fees, 2k for rent at £40pw and 333 to live off for a year...Not exactly the life of riley...). They then get themselves into a half decent job, start paying tax hand over fist, are entitled to no benefits from the state, have no chance at getting on the housing ladder and have to put up with people on the internet judging them for doing this..?

The long and the short of it is, take it from us, it isn't *easy* for graduates these days...it's not the end of the world if we can't buy a house in our first year out of uni, it's not a disaster if we can't afford our BMW in year two, of course it's not...but it's not easy. And if someone wants to let off steam about it on a forum, I say go them.

(Sorry about the length. I failed miserably at keeping it short. And sorry if there's SPAG errors, it's been a long week)

Idiophreak

lady_noluck wrote: »

It seems quite simple to me. "Youth" today have a choice. Career ladder or property ladder. You can't have both and i'm sick of reading about "youths" who think it's their right to.

I agree with most everything you say (in the spirit of "lets all whinge evening" ) but this statment I find odd. Can you explain further?

If you assume that a nice-ish place in many parts of the country today is gonna set you back around £200k (that's a 2 bed flat round here). Assume that, given the state of things, you're looking to borrow around a 3x multiplier. So, with £20k as deposit, plus some more cash for fees, moving and stamp duty, to afford to buy a reasonable place, you need to be earning £60kpa and have £30k in savings.

Your chances of achieving this wage today without a degree is *fairly* minimal. Your chances of achieving it with a degree are *slightly* less minimal.

So, you see, youth don't have a choice. They *have* to go after the career ladder to stand the faintest chance of getting on the housing ladder.

ianmr65

This is difficult. Many people of my generation have like me, have benefited from the property boom in the last 15 years. A few have made a great deal of money, and many have not, and are in your position, renting, or living in council flats. Or worse, have saddled themselves with massive mortgages, for properties that are about to lose 30% of their value.
Many of today's parents are gifting deposits, and helping with mortgage paymenst in an effort to give something back to their kids.

I don't think trying to make the best of your life and opportunities is a bad thing. And in fact it's what most people do. It's not greed, it's human nature, in a capital driven world.

There are a huge number of people in the world living on less than a dollar a day, who are baisically funding our lifestyle in the west. So the main thing is to count your blessings, and do the best you can, rather than get depressed about the injusitices you percive you have suffered.

lady_noluck

Gingernutmeg wrote: »

lady_noluck, surely your argument works the other way too? Nobody made you buy two houses - that was your decision and if you have to work in a job you don't like to pay the mortgage then that's your decision too. If you hate it that much and you're so bitter about not going to uni, then sell the houses and go. I appreciate what you're saying but you're saying the same as the OP but in reverse IYSWIM - don't criticise him/her for realising that what they did might not have been the best decision, after all, you seem to be in the same boat and are bitter about the choices you've made.

I made the choice to go to uni as a mature student - I could have used my savings as a deposit, but I didn't. That was my decision and I live with whatever consequences that may bring, namely that I can't afford to buy at the moment. I made a choice to go to uni because I want a job that's interesting and challenging. I was sick of working 60 hour weeks in catering and still not having enough to live on, and for me, uni was the right decision. I don't think it's my 'right' to have a good job and a nice home, but I don't see why I shouldn't work towards that, regardless of what choices I've made. I don't think that just because I've been a student I somehow 'deserve' more than other people, and I think it's a bit misguided to say that all students think that, just because they chose a path in life that you didn't. At the end of the day, if you want to go to uni there's nothing beyond your own chosen circumstances that are stopping you - you're as equally as entitled to the funding that is available and nobody will stop you getting that.

If you read my post clearly you would see I didn't say "students" think they deserve more than other people, I said "youths". I.e people in their mid to lower 20's. You admit you went to Uni as a mature student, i'm assuming you're older than 25.

And I may feel bitter that in my younger days I didn't have the chance to go to uni but thats due to the personal circumstances that stopped me. There's time for Uni later. My point was that you have to choose what comes first. Career ladder or property ladder. You can't always climb both at the same time.

chappers

To the OP be thankful you are even in a position to even consider being able to buy a house , many are not even in that position.
Maybe if you hadn,t been to uni you may have been in a position to have already saved a deposit and being looking to buy a couple of years ago.... but then maybe uni has given you a higher earning potential(don't know if you studied anything worthwhile that is going to carve out a career for you).
You are only 24 I bout my house 10 years ago when I was 29 and believe me at the time I didn't really think I could afford it, niether could my parents when they bought their first house(inherited some money otherwise wouldn't have been able to buy)when they bought their first house in 1970 we lived in a small town and half the houses there were owned by one person and his family so BTL is nothing new.

Just be patient you have a few years ahead of you yet, save what you can and hopefully your incomes will improve. I don't think the housing market is goin to run further away from you, anytime soon.

[Deleted User]

Ahh this takes me back a few years. Twenty five, earning 21K in Cardiff, saving every penny I could towards a house deposit (not that on my income I could get a mortgage to buy one).. so, i up sticks, move to london.

Turns out, you can't instantly buy a house anymore after graduating. Thankfully, I got together with my fiancee, and together our salary was pushing 60k, so we could afford the rather nice 2 bed terrace house in Hertfordshire i'm sitting in now. This is 2 years after I moved to London for a better life.

Wait a bit, you'll earn more, so will your OH.. get on the market when you can afford it but don't stress over it too much

moomin_white

i emphasize with the OP too, mostly because i'm in a similar situation but older (30),no debts or CCs and earning £28k and i can't buy even with a huge deposit!

i did almost buy 4 years ago but both properties fell through (one where the seller demanded another £6k just before signing the contract!) and the other where the seller had deliberatley tried to hide £10k worth of damp problems.

Because of the selfish actions of these sellers,i lost almost £2000 (surveys,solicitors fees,mortgage fees,etc) and had to stop trying to buy for 6 months to save up this money again- in the meantime prices and IRs shot up again and i gave up trying to buy.

4 years down the line, the places i was looking at (£100k mark) now sell for around £140k!!!!

how can that be fair, and should i reasonably be expected to stretch myself to the limit for a small flat(and not even a good area) while IRs are low and risk getting repossesed if IRs even go up by 1%?

again, i'm not greedy and i live frugally(keep saving for that deposit-increased by 50% in last 4 years!)

(waits for a flaming now) :rolleyes:

btw,only earnt £28k since 2002-left school at 18 and earnt only £13k whilst living in London til 2002(done 4 years of training in that time-accruing only £2k worth of debt which i paid off very quickly)

Benefits_Blagger

i have a lot of sympathy and much in common with the OP. one of the big problems with higher education now is that there is simply to many people going to university now that most degrees are worthless and the only reward for doing them is a load of debt.

my degree has never helped me get a "better" job and with house prices being so high there is no chance of me ever owning my property, so i have decided to throw in the towel and now live on benefits, ive done this for 7 years now.

the situation for young graduates now is abysmal, the country and the older generation has screwed us, i have no shame in screwing them back.