Faster Payments from May 27 - confirmation from APACS

xiox

Biggles wrote: »

The wording seems to have changed now. No 'guarantees' ;-)

But sure enough, from 27 May Halifax will accept Faster Payments.

Mind you, they won't be sending them till September!!

Now, I was assuming that FPS was a system like BACS, where your bank initiates a payment and it duly arrives at the receiving bank, whoever that may be. Does Halifax's statement mean that, for FPS to function, both the sending and the receiving banbks have to be parties to it? Or is it just HBOS bull***?

If changing my bank account was painless, I might do it now. It's crazy how long they've taken to do this. Have any banks announced they will operate faster payments in full from day 1?

smithja

Does anyone know the situation in any detail with Barlcays as to what will be classed as a fast payment as per Biggles post regarding LTSB and if they intend charging for them?

James

Milarky

xiox wrote: »

If changing my bank account was painless, I might do it now. It's crazy how long they've taken to do this. Have any banks announced they will operate faster payments in full from day 1?

Have done a round robin of the bakers dozen:

Barclays
http://www.personal.barclays.co.uk/BRC1/jsp/brccontrol?task=homefreegroup&value=14614&target=_blank&site=pfs

"There will be an initial period when some banks are still joining the scheme. Payments to these banks will continue to take 3 working days until they have joined and are fully participating. Payments made to some credit card or utility companies will be excluded from the Faster Payments scheme and may still take a minimum of 3 working days to arrive in the account."

HBOS
http://www.halifax.co.uk/OnlineBankingHelp/fasterpayments.asp

"From that day, most Halifax current accounts, savings accounts, mortgages and personal loans will be able to accept Faster Payments"
"In August, Halifax will begin to send some standing orders by Faster Payments."
"In September Halifax banking customers will be able to request immediate payments"


HSBC I]Personal Banking Terms and Conditions[/I
http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_5_S5/content/uk/pdfs/en/personalbankingterms_conditions.pdf

"During 2008, we will be introducing a faster way that bill payments can be made (faster payments). This will then be extended to standing orders later in 2008. We will give you 30 days prior notice of the exact date on our Rates and Charges Notice in our branches. For immediate bill payments, provided we receive your payment instructions by 11.45pm, each single payment is for less than £10,000 (£100,000 for standing orders) and the recipient’s bank is able to accept the payment via this new service, the payment will be deducted from your account immediately and will normally be credited to the recipient’s account within 2 hours. We will tell you at the time you ask us to make an immediate payment if the recipient’s bank has been able to accept it. Payments that are not processed via the faster payment service will be dealt with as set out in 5.3.1 to 5.3.3 above."

RBS
http://www.rbs.co.uk/personal/ms/faster-payments.ashx

"Check this page regularly to keep up to date with Faster Payments."

Lloyds TSB
http://www.lloydstsb.com/ways_to_bank_with_us/faster_payments.asp

" * Single immediate payments. These are one-off payments that you want to send immediately. These payments can be made all day, every day.
* Future-dated payments. One-off payments that are set up to be made at a later date. These will continue to be made on ‘working days’ only.
* Standing orders. These are regular payments made on a specific date for the same amount. These payments will continue to be made on ‘working days’ only."

"We’ll be updating this page with more information about Faster Payments closer to the launch date."

Nationwide
http://www.nationwide.co.uk/faster_payments/default.htm

"We will be rolling out the service over a period of time to our FlexAccount customers and you will be notified when you are able to use this facility. Nationwide has chosen to introduce the service gradually throughout 2008 to ensure that we maintain the highest levels of customer service."

Alliance & Leicester
http://www.alliance-leicester.co.uk/currentaccounts/ec03964.pdf

"Both the sending account and destination account must be part of the Faster Payments Scheme for Your payment to go faster. Most banks will be part of the Faster Payments Scheme by 2009."

Co-op Bank
Website: www.co-operativebank.co.uk
Info: None

Abbey
Website: www.abbey.com
Info: none

National Australia Bank (Cyldesdale and Yorkshire Banks)
(cbonline.co.uk and ybonline.co.uk)

"The Faster Payments project is on schedule for the industry go-live date of 27 May 2008."

Northern Rock
Website: www.northernrock.co.uk
Info: none


Danske Bank Group (Northern Ireland Bank)
http://www.northernbank.co.uk/20080422FPS

"The new Faster Payments infrastructure will be launched at the end of May 2008 and we will then begin to roll out the service to our customers."

"Further information will be made available to our customers in due course, alternatively click here to visit the APACs website : http://www.apacs.org.uk/payments_industry/faster_payments_service.html "

Basically it's a desert of information out there still...

But to confirm: both banks will have to be using Faster Payments on the day or (I suspect) it defaults to BACS when sending

Something I was previously unaware: ''future dated' [single] payments can not be sent 7 days a week (according to Lloyds) I thought these could be 'any' date - just like immediate payments. Things like credit cards, for instance can ask for payment on a Sunday, so you'd have to go online to do one of those... (But look what Barclays says about that!)

Milarky

It's just occurred to me that the reason the system is being restricted to immediate single payments from day 1 is that (by definition) there won't be many of these. By contrast standing orders repeat and therefore represent 'bulk' transactions that they'd rather went through BACS.

I know it's not possible to justify running two systems side by side but BACS isn't actually going to end - it will be retained for direct debits (so there never will be such a thing as an 'instant DD')

Given this, wouldn't you think they could have introduced

1) a system for immediate payments and or restricted future dated payments (like no more than 30 days from now) and

2) kept BACS for all other payments (standing orders/direct debits) but

3) simply eliminated the 'float' (keeping the interest whilst the payment transits for themselves) by a rule - currently followed by some banks to pay interest until the payment is received at the other end?

If they had done 1-2-3 one suspects they could have produced a system sooner than 'by 2009' After all the main reason for having faster payments is simply faster settlement. But how many people need to settle their bills that urgently in practice?

Anyway - that didn't happen - so we are stuck with having to be patient and accept that things will finally get there....

gt94sss2

Milarky wrote: »

Have done a round robin of the bakers dozen:
HSBC I]Personal Banking Terms and Conditions[/I
http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_5_S5/co...conditions.pdf

"During 2008, we will be introducing a faster way that bill payments can be made (faster payments). This will then be extended to standing orders later in 2008. We will give you 30 days prior notice of the exact date on our Rates and Charges Notice in our branches. For immediate bill payments, provided we receive your payment instructions by 11.45pm, each single payment is for less than £10,000 (£100,000 for standing orders) and the recipient’s bank is able to accept the payment via this new service, the payment will be deducted from your account immediately and will normally be credited to the recipient’s account within 2 hours. We will tell you at the time you ask us to make an immediate payment if the recipient’s bank has been able to accept it. Payments that are not processed via the faster payment service will be dealt with as set out in 5.3.1 to 5.3.3 above."

HSBC have also added this Faster Payments FAQ to their website.

Regards
Sunil

MarkyMarkD

Milarky

Whilst people bang boringly on about "float", it is really NOT significant to any normal individual.

I think that is why the priority has been to get the money moved more quickly, and not simply to remove "float".

People don't like having to plan 3 working days ahead, and being charged for being overdrawn / paying bills late because they are incapable of planning.

IMHO that's far more important, to most people, than the loss of 3p of interest on their bill payment.

smithja

I have a point to make about this issue of "float".

Does anyone recall in one of the Superman films were Richard Pryor's character re-programmed the company computer system so that it caused the half cents as I recall on employees wages which no one would notice going missing to be added to his pay cheque and it added up to a lot of money.

How many bank customers in the UK make use of BACS on a daily basis? Even if this float value is very small per transaction, due to the volume of transactions would this not cause the profit from interest (if the banks do accrue it during the process for one day and some others for longer were they have a cycle longer than the 3 days) to start adding up to more than the national debt of some third world countries pretty quickly? It was just a thought I had that might be pertinent but I may also be completely off of the mark.

I am not at my best at the moment so I cannot think of anyway this would possibly be offset against other costs but I am sure someone will know if that happens.

James

Biggles

Milarky wrote: »

I know it's not possible to justify running two systems side by side but BACS isn't actually going to end - it will be retained for direct debits (so there never will be such a thing as an 'instant DD')

That's what I thought. But I was curious to receive a letter yesterday, from the recipient of an annual DD payment, to the effect that as from 26 May they will be upgraded to a 'new Direct Debits payments collection system'.

The reason for writing was the slight change of date that will result, but I find it interesting that operative date more or less coincides with the introduction of FPS.

consumer

Managed to find more detailed information on HSBC website...regarding Faster Payment.

What is Faster Payments (FPS)?

FPS is a new UK clearing system which is available between the member banks and covers the following types of payment:

• Immediate payments
• Forward dated payments
• Standing orders (due to be implemented during 2009)

Payments will in normal circumstances reach the beneficiary's account and be available for drawing within 2 hours.
The system will be available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to make payments. Standing orders will only be available on working days.
For more information visit
www.apacs.org.uk/payments_industry/faster_payments_service.html
Who will be able to use FPS?

There are 13 founder members of FPS and the service is available between customers of the following financial institutions:

• HSBC
• Lloyds TSB
• HBOS plc
• Nationwide
• Citi
• Abbey
• Co-operative Bank
• Barclays
• RBS Group
• National Australia Group
• Danske Bank
• Alliance Leicester
• Northern Rock

Different banks will be offering different services and may introduce the service at different times. For further information on the service each bank is offering you will need to contact them direct. We also recommend that you contact your payee to ensure that they can accept Faster Payments.
Do I have a choice as to whether I use FPS?

Provided the beneficiary and the beneficiary's financial institution are both participating in the scheme then the payment will be sent via FPS.
Why is there a short delay when I confirm my payment?

You will receive confirmation of when the payment will be credited. To do this FPS contacts the financial institution that the payment is being sent to, in order to confirm the payment will be accepted and credited to the beneficiary's account. This may take several seconds to complete.
Please wait until the final confirmation screen has been received before logging off.
Who can I make payments to?

You can make payments to most UK based individuals and organisations. In the initial stages some organisations and banks will not accept FPS payments. In these cases funds will be sent using the existing system and will take at least 3 working days.

You will be advised when making the payment how long it will take to be credited.
When will payments be received?

FPS will not be fully operational immediately. However, when the service is fully operational then 95% of all payments will be sent via the system. In normal circumstances most of these payments will be received by the beneficiary within two hours. A notification of whether the payment has been accepted or rejected will appear on your computer.
If the payment is to an HSBC Credit Card, it will still take three working days to be credited to the account.
Payments HSBC Credit Cards will start to be sent via FPS in November 2008.
Does this new service mean I can pay my credit card bill on the day that payment is due?

Not necessarily. You will need to check the information on the back of your bill or statement to ensure you can pay it in time. All companies accepting Faster Payments and providing bills to customers should include information about timescales on the back of their bills or statements.
Payments to HSBC branded credit cards (including First Direct & Partnership Cards (including John Lewis)) will continue to take 3 days to be credited (although backdated for interest purposes) until later this year.
Payments to M&S Money cards are not currently scheduled to be included in the Faster Payments scheme.
What if I use the wrong sort code and account number?

FPS will check the sort code and account number are valid before sending it and will send you an error message if the details are invalid. It will not check that the sort code and account number relate to the beneficiary name.

Check all details input as we are not able to cancel payments or recover funds if the payment is sent to the wrong place.
How much money can I send in one day?

This new service will be launched on 27 May 2008 and customers will be able to make Faster Payments using our Bill Payments service from that date. In the first week after launch HSBC customers will only be able to make payments up to the value of £20.00. From the 3 June 2008, we will look to increase the value, if the service is performing as expected. Therefore by the end of June we expect our customers to be able to send payments up to the value of £10,000.00.
However please note that this limit can also be reduced at anytime without prior notice.
What are the cut-off times for sending a payment?

If you select 'Immediately', the amount of the payment will be taken from your account immediately. Payments generated after 11.45pm will not be sent until the next day. Payments made 'Immediately' cannot be stopped.
What happens if I set up a forward dated payment to leave on a weekend or non-working day?

If you request for a payment to leave on a date that is a weekend or non-working day, then the funds will need to be available at 12.01am on that day and your balance will reflect this. You will need to ensure that funds are available to cover any future dated payments.
What if I want to cancel a payment I have set up?

Payments made 'Immediately' cannot be stopped.
Forward dated payments can only be stopped if they appear on the 'View or cancel pending payments' list. These payments can be cancelled at any time up to and including the early hours of the date selected for payment via 'View or cancel pending payments' within 'Make a payment'. Once the payment has been sent it cannot be cancelled.

theboylard

smithja wrote: »

I have a point to make about this issue of "float".

Does anyone recall in one of the Superman films were Richard Pryor's character re-programmed the company computer system so that it caused the half cents as I recall on employees wages which no one would notice going missing to be added to his pay cheque and it added up to a lot of money.

How many bank customers in the UK make use of BACS on a daily basis? Even if this float value is very small per transaction, due to the volume of transactions would this not cause the profit from interest (if the banks do accrue it during the process for one day and some others for longer were they have a cycle longer than the 3 days) to start adding up to more than the national debt of some third world countries pretty quickly? It was just a thought I had that might be pertinent but I may also be completely off of the mark.

I am not at my best at the moment so I cannot think of anyway this would possibly be offset against other costs but I am sure someone will know if that happens.

James

I've been thinking this all the way through this thread!!
To the individual the "float" is almost negligible, unless you are transferring large sums when it may be of concern.
But from the volume of transactions done by BACS for 2007, that equates to £3.7 Trillion, processing over 90 million transactions per day, somewhere there is a truckload of money that someone is earning interest on - and it ain't me!!!

From my point of view, if we are behind Poland's banking system which has long been able to initiate transfers within 2 hrs. for any purpose, then there is a commercial reason for that which is most certainly not for the benefit of the poor customer.

I think a poll of other banking systems is called for - are we getting a fair deal?
I'll speak to some of my staff next week (mostly former Eastern Europeans, with a hint of Portuguese, and the odd Italian - very odd he is too!) and let you all know.