till debt do us part

Tondella

Hi johannamse

Thanks for a different opinion on the housing front. I really am in a quandary about what to do on this issue. It's not the "owning our own house" that matters to us as we won't be living in it, but I do want to think about the long-term and my concern is that if we wait to be debt free before buying a house the market will have taken off around us. I guess it depends on one's reading of the housing market in the UK at the moment and whether we are at the top of a boom.

FYI for everyone who can comment on the housing issue, we thinking of buying in the north west, in the town that I grew up in. My mum has lived there all her life, in a number of different properties, knows the area really well and so has a good idea of "good value" properties. We're also up to speed on the rental market there (about £450-£550 pcm rent for a 2 bed terrace). So it's the safest market to buy into.

My mum has always been a big believer in buying as much as you can afford so that you make the most return on your property. My Dad died when she was 36 and so that's largely how she financed raising me and my two brothers. The financial advisor has told us we can have a mortgage of £250, 000 with an additional £30k at the same interest rate to cover buying fees and pay off some debt. I'm not sure that this might be too much for us to cope with, plus I'm less certain of the rentability of a property of that size/value. Any thoughts?

PS johanamse, I notice you are scheduled to be clear of £70k of debt by Aug 2006, good work, it must be a great feeling of anticipation!

johannamse

read. read. read. No one knows what the housing market will do, but the evidence is starting to look overwhelming. Look on the house price board on this site and https://www.housepricecrash.com (there are links from this website to other useful ones). We are conditioned into thinking that property is always the right thing to do and I think your Mum is right long term, but your future could be really different if you buy now, or in 2 years. I am not advocating holding off forever ( iplan to buy in mid 07), but arm yourself with information and get wise.

Yes it will be a bloody relief to be debt free, it has ruled my partners entire adult existence (he is 29) and stopped us both living at times, and has also made us both ill. Your partner sounds like mine (in fact now my hubby we got married 1 month ago - on the cheap - church hall do) and he now cannot express how different his life is not having to worry about money ALL THE TIME.

You have found a real gem on this site - so get reading. Win the war by being armed with information. In a few years times you will be debt free, very savvy with money and will helping all your debt riddled friends with their money worries.

Tondella

I've just spoken to OH on the phone about starting this thread and had a very interesting insight into how his mind works. He was initially as reticent as I was about revising the wedding budget, although when I pointed out how and where we could make savings he seemed happier. His attitude was, "memories are too precious to worry about their financial cost, we could all die tomorrow and if we do all my debts are insured so they won't be a trouble to anyone". He did then acknowledge that that attitude probably got him into debt in the first place! johanamse also touched on my attitude to debt earlier and I forgot to take them up on it, but I think deep down I still see this as OH's problem primarily and I get the feeling that the best way to proceed is with some "joined-up" thinking.

Some come on, money savers, many of you have been through debt and emerged out the other side, I'm sure some of you have shared these feelings. How do I change my own opinion and that of OH's??? How can I get OH to sit down and talk over our budgeting strategy, for the wedding, for debt relief, for our future???

Murtle

If he doesn't want to talk about it fully, take your time, but also take over the finances. It's a long slog, but it will work. It's taken you x years to learn how to budget your money, don't expect them to learn it over night, they have x years of *non-budgeting* to unlearn, and then to relearn the *right* way! Patience and communication and occasionaly a firm NO!

On another note, not sure if you are aware but Monsoon have started their online sale, it's listed on the shop but don't drop - but quite a good place to look for a summery wedding dress or bridesmaid dress (if required).

Good luck, and honestly so much in weddings can be done cheaply but perfectly!

wisbech_lad

Yes, we got married (in 2000) on budget of about 2,500 quid. Got married in a mosque. Reception food was buffet (much cheaper than banquet, as no waiters needed) - and as OH family are muslim, no-one had a problem with only beer & soft drinks being available (but champagne for toast)

Flowers - got huge amount from wholesale market directly - who needs florists?

As for your fiance. Mess living is difficult with peer pressure. A good friend who was an army officer was in the LI, not RGJ, because he didn't have the private income to be in the RGJ mess, and he knew it.

Lord Roberts though was famous in the army for drinking water in the mess (he couldn't afford alcohol as had to live on salary only) and he made it to CinC, so it isn't necessary for his career to have a certain lifestyle - in fact I think you'll find he'll get respect from his fellow officers for not pretending to be something he isn't. He can blame it all on you to save face anyway...!

nabowla

Putting the rights and wrongs of spending £10k on the wedding to one side, the first thing you need to do is to draw up your monthly budget as it stands at the moment. Then, come back to us for lots of suggestions about how to make huge savings. For example, how much are you both spending on your mobile bills every month? Which provider are you using for your landline at the moment? How much is your monthly food shopping bill? It'll be harder for your fiance to make savings as so many of the costs of living in the Mess are fixed but even he ought to be able to spend more wisely without changing his lifestyle too drastically. If he changes mobile provider to get a cheaper deal he might even get a brand new phone thrown in for free - and I've yet to meet a military guy who doesn't jump at the chance of getting a new gadget to play with!!!

Once you've cut back on your monthly expenditure you can throw the savings at reducing the debts as quickly as possible. By far the most expensive debt is your fiance's credit card bill so put all the extra money towards this rather than your interest-free loans. As for moving your fiance's debts onto a card in your name, only you can make the final decision. Under normal circumstances I'd think it might be worth considering but you have to bear in mind that he's in the military. At the moment his insurance would pay off his debts if the worst happened. If the debts were in your name, you might well find that the insurance wouldn't pay up. Would you really want the added stress of trying to pay off the debts under such awful circumstances?

There are a couple of financial products designed specifically for military personnel who find it difficult to get credit cards etc due to frequent changes of address. I think they're a bit more expensive than the 0% rates you might get but it would be worth seeing whether they are cheaper than the standard Lloyds rate. It doesn't cost anything to investigate your options! If you could reduce the interest even by 1 or 2%, that would be more money to throw at reducing the capital. Good luck.

Dammam

I'd agree with an earlier poster. Mess etiquette and peer pressure make a £10,000 wedding seem the right thing to do. It must be bloody difficult for OH to go for a wedding that's cheaper and less exclusive than what's considered "the norm". Also, as it's still a very male dominated environment, he would then have to put up with the "under the thumb","she wears the trousers", "she controls the purse strings" jibes that should be the exclusive domain of the playground but which are sadly prevalent in Officers Mess's around the country. I can't really give any advice on what you should do, as it's him that would have to put up with this (although perhaps it's better to put up with this than be saddled with more debt). Perhaps he could say that you both want to afford the nicest home you can for when he leaves the service, and he's putting the money into a brick & mortar investment rather than a champagne & prawn sandwich one.
I know you wont go for this as your mind is already made up and arrangements are underway, but do you HAVE to get married right now? You said that you wont be living together for the forseeable future so you wont exactly be living as "man & wife". That's a bit drastic though, isn't it?
Again as a previous person noted, it's a good idea to get a home while he's in the forces - it really can be a pain when you leave. Not sure that the advance of pay is the best idea though, unless you're sure you can do without that money coming in in the future.
Lastly, live now pay later is great, except we all seem to have lived longer than our pay permits! If I'd managed to die at 35, I'd have been much better off financially.

But dead - always a bloody catch isn't there?

Have a nice wedding and a long and happy marriage.

johannamse

Hey there,

I too would take over the finances. Above post is a good one - it takes a long time to unlearn things. It's a big deal both mentally ("It's not my debt!")and physically (less clothes for you) taking on someone elses debt, but I advise taking the bull by the horns and getting it sorted. My husband also used to have this attitude of , Oh, i could be dead tomorrow, but ultimately it hid a sadness that he had for years, and all he really craved was a normal life, with a little bit of money for beer and a new pair of rugby boots every year. I now think, thats all we all want really - a simple life.

I would get a 0% credit card in your name - I know the pro's and con's if he dies etc, but start seeing yourself as a unit with the same finances. If you can get a mortgage of 250k, then I am sure you are both on good wages. If you start getting debt savvy, get all the figures in a spreadsheet and start seeing the debt decreasing over the coming months, you will see how quickly things can change. This decrease of debt will really inspire your boy and the budgets that you have set together (or maybe you have!!!) he will start to see the advantages of. This is what worked for me.

Another point...if after 6 months you have knocked a few grand off the debt, start planning the wedding, and put the wedding figures in the spreadsheet. This will be the biggest inspiration ever to reducing the cost of the wedding.

Go get figures / outgoings/ ins etc written down and see where that leaves you BOTH!

margaretclare

Hi Tondella

I totally, totally agree with johannamse especially in post #18.

You are getting a perspective from a different generation from me - but why is everyone so obsessed with 'getting on the property ladder'? To me, as to most of my generation, a house is primarily a place to live in. Sure, many of us have 'made' vast sums in equity, but that's not 'real' money - it could vanish tomorrow if, as some predict, the housing market goes into meltdown. And we can't access it anyway, except by either downsizing or doing equity release.

I take your point about not getting married in church. And I completely agree - I think it's nothing but arrant hypocrisy, and you hear them say 'oh, but it's such a beautiful background for the photographs' when they marry in some lovely old church, which they never attended in the past and will never attend in the future! We got married in church because we're church members, not because it was photogenic and not because it was cheap. I wanted something different from anything either of us had had before - I'd previously had a village church, traditional, he'd had register office (twice). Even then we were in trouble from his brother, whose principles would have been offended if he ever entered a church - he's a 'committed secular Jew' whatever that means. It didn't upset his cousin, a practising Jew - he was best man.

Anyway, that was me. One of the loveliest (and probably the most expensive, I didn't ask) wedding I ever went to was at Kedleston Hall in Derbyshire. It wasn't only the money, but the thought, care and detailed planning that had gone into it. This, I think, is what makes a wedding 'special' to the people who attend it - the care and the planning, not just throwing money at it, doing what is expected.

Your comments about the army lifestyle are interesting. Back in WWII days my illegitimate father was court-martialled because some of his cheques bounced! I'm sure he'd have embraced the credit card way of living with open arms if it had been possible then.

But face it. Your OH is £20K in debt now. You need to sit down and find out why. Is this the case with every one of his brother officers (not that they'll tell you)? If this is rife throughout the whole army then I would suggest that the armed forces have got a big problem. I can understand possibly that they think 'live now, we might not live for long'. But most of us don't think like that. So he's £20K in debt now (you think) and you're both proposing to add £10K to that, even if you shave a bit off here and there. Plus you want a mortgage for a house you won't live in? Renting a house is not without its problems. There's one near us which has had a lot of money spent on doing it up, we thought we had new neighbours then suddenly it's empty and a 'To Let' board is up in the front drive. No one seems to go there, no one appears to be renting it! As a landlord you have responsibilities to your tenants and I can't even begin to go into all that. It sounds a good idea in theory but it's something you need to look into in some depth.

How to alter someone's mindset when they are surrounded by people who think differently...notoriously difficult. You are up against 'peer pressure'. You can start by sitting down and talking. Reading Martin's book can be a good start, also, can I recommend another book called 'A Girl's Best Friend is her Money' available from Amazon.

Just a few thoughts!

Aunty Margaret

Tondella

Good morning guys!

More excellent advice coming in overnight. Thanks! Here's the plan based on what you have suggested so far.

Firstly, we have to have a really good grip on our current debt situation, with all debts moved to the lowest interest, in order to truly judge the benefits of this mortgage/loan offer. I am going to suggest that OH fill in the money saving budget spreadsheet, as I will, then we can see how much we can contribute towards debt repayment per month. I'll post up the budgets when we have done them. I'll use the snowballing link to get a time schedule on debt repayment. I can then factor in the effect of this mortgage/loan and see whether it would be worth it. My main priority is to get debt free, I'm only interested in getting a house if it is worth it financially in the long-run. you're right Aunty Margaret, my mum rents out a flat in manchester and it's been a nightmare trying to fill it.

OH's debts are all insured if he dies, and it had crossed my mind that taking over his debts in my name would mean losing this insurance. However he also gets a lump sum from the military if he dies (though this may only be if he is in operations??) which could cover the uninsured debt. I'll follow up on looking through his credit check, get some notes put on his credit history to explain the address changes and see what we can apply for in his name.

Mess living and all its perils. To Oh's credit he has avoided every single run ashore since living in mess, and has the strength of character to say no. However, living in mess is a pretty grim experience and so once expense is membership at a rather swank gym. OH is living in mess because he contributes to the rent of the flat in london that I live in, so I really can't begrudge him his gym fees as they get him out of his room and keep him off the streets . One other consequence of us living apart is that weekends tend to become spend-a-thons, particularly as OH asks for lots of treats when he takes me to sainsburys. I think this is an area we can really make savings on and put towards the debt.

As for marrying now, aside from the romantic implications, there are some financial bonuses. I get a rail card! (in fact this was one of the reasons for marrying him that he put forward in his proposal!!), if OH's next post is in london we are eligible for married quarters at £250 rent pcm (next post is likely to start spring 2007), in the meantime he receives reimbursement for petrol to and from his marital home (the flat in london). If it comes down to waiting to be married or having a cheap wedding then cheap wedding it will be.

I'll come back with some more facts and figures later! In the meantime, keep 'em coming!