tax credit overpayments new report published

whitevanwoman

dianab wrote: »

I too had a visit this morning saying I owe Tax Credits £5,000. Although I talked to them last year and was told I only owed £200 not the £7,000 they were asking.
I paid it.

Now they tell me that it was for 2003-04. This claim is for 2004-05 !!

I wrote to them in Jan 04 advising them of a new job and salary, but it seems they carried on paying me on the previous year's assessment.

A new form is being sent for me to dispute their claim for £5,000, but should I have to pay anything back, when this is their mistake?

You will find information explaining how to dispute at www.taxcc.org with clear step by step instructions. You will need to be able to prove that it was their mistake to have any chance of a successful dispute and write off the alleged overpayment, and to do this you will have to request copies of all information in the form of written info and recordings of telephone calls by putting in a SORN request - the instructions on how to do this can be found in the how to dispute section of the website above.

Whilst your OP is in dispute, all recovery action should be suspended under HMRC's own guidelines. However communication between HMRC and their debt collection department is poor, to say the least, so you may still get demands for repayment from the debt collection dept, and you may need to fight a bit to get them to accept that you are disputing this OP before they will back off. If you have problems, contact your MP and send in a letter of complaint to both your local tax credit office and the debt collection agency.

The whole system is very complicated as payments are normally based on the previous years income and very often changes in circumstances do cause problems with OPs the following year, particularly if your income increased. HMRC may well try to blame you for not reading your award notice properly and informing them that they got it wrong and so although it may be their fault they will claim that it is equally your fault and so you are liable for the OP.

I suspect you may well have a fight on your hands but stick with it - after all £5K is a huge amount of money. Whatever happens, do not pay a penny until you have completely gone through the whole dispute process which may take years - my battle has been going on since 2005 and is still ongoing.

However if you look at the success thread in the www.taxcc.org forum you will see that people are winning their cases. It's just a shame that in order to do so, we are having to become tax experts. legal experts and have plenty of spare time, commitment and determination to do so. It appalls me that for every one person who wins against an unfair OP, there are probably another 10 who just agree to pay up (often putting themselves into poverty to do so) because they don't realise that they can dispute or appeal, or they are vulnerable and are browbeaten into paying up, or the system is too complicated for them to understand or they are unable to get access to advice services such as CAB who will help them fight their case.

I would also suggest that you post what you have posted here in the new members section of the www.taxcc.org forum and people who have been through the same as you will give you help and support during your dispute.

Good luck - don't give in to bullies!

dianab_3

whitevanwoman wrote: »

You will find information explaining how to dispute at www.taxcc.org with clear step by step instructions. You will need to be able to prove that it was their mistake to have any chance of a successful dispute and write off the alleged overpayment, and to do this you will have to request copies of all information in the form of written info and recordings of telephone calls by putting in a SORN request - the instructions on how to do this can be found in the how to dispute section of the website above.

Whilst your OP is in dispute, all recovery action should be suspended under HMRC's own guidelines. However communication between HMRC and their debt collection department is poor, to say the least, so you may still get demands for repayment from the debt collection dept, and you may need to fight a bit to get them to accept that you are disputing this OP before they will back off. If you have problems, contact your MP and send in a letter of complaint to both your local tax credit office and the debt collection agency.

The whole system is very complicated as payments are normally based on the previous years income and very often changes in circumstances do cause problems with OPs the following year, particularly if your income increased. HMRC may well try to blame you for not reading your award notice properly and informing them that they got it wrong and so although it may be their fault they will claim that it is equally your fault and so you are liable for the OP.

I suspect you may well have a fight on your hands but stick with it - after all £5K is a huge amount of money. Whatever happens, do not pay a penny until you have completely gone through the whole dispute process which may take years - my battle has been going on since 2005 and is still ongoing.

However if you look at the success thread in the www.taxcc.org forum you will see that people are winning their cases. It's just a shame that in order to do so, we are having to become tax experts. legal experts and have plenty of spare time, commitment and determination to do so. It appalls me that for every one person who wins against an unfair OP, there are probably another 10 who just agree to pay up (often putting themselves into poverty to do so) because they don't realise that they can dispute or appeal, or they are vulnerable and are browbeaten into paying up, or the system is too complicated for them to understand or they are unable to get access to advice services such as CAB who will help them fight their case.

I would also suggest that you post what you have posted here in the new members section of the www.taxcc.org forum and people who have been through the same as you will give you help and support during your dispute.

Good luck - don't give in to bullies!

Very helpful. Thanks
Just wears one down though.
No doubt they'll be back next year for more again!

whitevanwoman

dianab wrote: »

Very helpful. Thanks
Just wears one down though.
No doubt they'll be back next year for more again!

I know - I have come so close to giving up but I just can't afford to repay anything, especially when I know that in my case I was genuinely entitled to that money and having been off sick for a long time, I went back into part-time work thinking that thanks to Tax Credits, I would be able to just work part-time until I was well enough to get back into full-time work. 4 years later, my health has actually deteriorated to the point where I am now receiving disability benefits and the chances of returning to full time work and therefore being free of tax credits for ever looks unlikely, all due to the stress, anxiety and poverty caused by the continuing errors and fight to get what I am entitled to. So thanks to tax credit errors and incompetance, I am now costing the government more than ever in additional benefits, additional medical treatment and additional support workers.

It's only by encouraging others not to give up and to keep fighting that I am able to keep fighting myself. I feel like I owe it to myself and that I do not deserve to have been treated this way or to have had to go through what I've been through. It is shameful that the poorest, most vulnerable people in society are treated like this but Gordon Brown needs to remember that he can't remain our unelected leader for ever, eventually there will be an election, and that's when we will be calling the shots.

whitevanwoman

The tax credit casualties support group www.taxcc.org are looking for people to come forward with stories to do with Data Protection problems, for example:
- where HMRC has sent you information about other people's tax credit claims
- where they have sent information about you to the wrong address
- where you have requested information from them under the Data Protection Act and you did not receive all the information or didn't receive it within the 40 day time limit or the recordings of the phone calls necessary to prove your case where missing or unavailable
-where you have received your Data Protection information but the packaging has been so poor that the information has been clearly visible or the packet has even been taped together by the post office
- where there have been problems with previous joint claims and HMRC are saying that due to Data Protection they can't give you information regarding an ex-partner even though the OP relates to the time when you were still a couple and you supplied that info in the first place

and any other horror stories regarding information going astray, going missing, being shared with other people, etc etc etc

You should not need to give any identifying information if you do not wish to - and if you do, any info given will be treated in the strictest confidence.

If you can help please go to the tax credit casualties forum and post in the Data Protection thread - here is a link :
http://familytaxcredit.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~1387.asp

kevsam65

Just an update following my visit.
I phoned the helpline , to say I was disputing their claim , and to ask for the appropriate form. The first call was a complete waste of time , the woman had no idea what she was talking about , and when I informed her I had no intention of paying anything until I knew why I allegedly "owe" this debt , she told me "well you CAN dispute it , but you'll have to pay it anyway!! " :mad: Her attitiude infuriated me , and I was beginning to feel the urge to rant.....alot..... , so I hung up on her before I got myself in trouble lol.:cool:

Calmed down and phoned back..... gave them my details , and said I wanted to speak to a manager. Was told I couldn't. Anyway , this went on for a few minutes , until I said if I wasn't able to speak to her manager then my next phonecall would be to the national press.(Had no intention of it , but was getting desperate , lol)..She then tells me in a smug sort of way , that its entirely up to me , but they probably wouldnt be interested. "Ah , but they might be interested in the fact that you've been knocking on my neighbours doors and asking all sorts of questions about me and my family!! " (That IS true , and I'll come back to that) Anyway , she disappears , then comes back and tells me the manager is in a meeting(yeah right) and he'll call me back by the end of the day. I tell her he's got half an hour before I make the call. (At this point I'm trying not to laugh , and feeling a bit scared all at the same time).
Ten minutes later the manager calls. (score one for me I think) I go through it all with him , and he explains when each "overpayment" occurred. I give my side of the story (so to speak)and he tells me he is sending a dispute form "just write down what you've told me Mrs S , and I'm sure it'll be sorted out for you....we're not as harsh as everybody thinks!! " I actually bellylaughed when he said that

Now since posting after the visit from them , my neighbour came to tell me they called earlier in the day , and getting no answer from me , they went and knocked on her door. What alarmed me , is that my neighbour said they started talking to her as if they knew me , asking my neighbour "Do you know kev and sam" as opposed to Mr and Mrs S..... my neighbour tells me they were asking her allsorts , do I work , does kev , what times do we go to work , come home etc. A bit gestapo-ish I thought!!

I told the manager I wasn't happy about my neighbours being questioned about me , and to be fair he sounded a bit shocked , and asked me to write that on a seperate piece of paper , and attach it to the dispute form. On the whole , he was actually quite helpful , so it may be worth asking for a manager if phoning....but prepare for a battle to get them on the phone!!:eek:

sam.x

whitevanwoman

kevsam65 wrote: »

Just an update following my visit.
I phoned the helpline , to say I was disputing their claim , and to ask for the appropriate form. The first call was a complete waste of time , the woman had no idea what she was talking about , and when I informed her I had no intention of paying anything until I knew why I allegedly "owe" this debt , she told me "well you CAN dispute it , but you'll have to pay it anyway!! " :mad: Her attitiude infuriated me , and I was beginning to feel the urge to rant.....alot..... , so I hung up on her before I got myself in trouble lol.:cool:

Calmed down and phoned back..... gave them my details , and said I wanted to speak to a manager. Was told I couldn't. Anyway , this went on for a few minutes , until I said if I wasn't able to speak to her manager then my next phonecall would be to the national press.(Had no intention of it , but was getting desperate , lol)..She then tells me in a smug sort of way , that its entirely up to me , but they probably wouldnt be interested. "Ah , but they might be interested in the fact that you've been knocking on my neighbours doors and asking all sorts of questions about me and my family!! " (That IS true , and I'll come back to that) Anyway , she disappears , then comes back and tells me the manager is in a meeting(yeah right) and he'll call me back by the end of the day. I tell her he's got half an hour before I make the call. (At this point I'm trying not to laugh , and feeling a bit scared all at the same time).
Ten minutes later the manager calls. (score one for me I think) I go through it all with him , and he explains when each "overpayment" occurred. I give my side of the story (so to speak)and he tells me he is sending a dispute form "just write down what you've told me Mrs S , and I'm sure it'll be sorted out for you....we're not as harsh as everybody thinks!! " I actually bellylaughed when he said that

Now since posting after the visit from them , my neighbour came to tell me they called earlier in the day , and getting no answer from me , they went and knocked on her door. What alarmed me , is that my neighbour said they started talking to her as if they knew me , asking my neighbour "Do you know kev and sam" as opposed to Mr and Mrs S..... my neighbour tells me they were asking her allsorts , do I work , does kev , what times do we go to work , come home etc. A bit gestapo-ish I thought!!

I told the manager I wasn't happy about my neighbours being questioned about me , and to be fair he sounded a bit shocked , and asked me to write that on a seperate piece of paper , and attach it to the dispute form. On the whole , he was actually quite helpful , so it may be worth asking for a manager if phoning....but prepare for a battle to get them on the phone!!:eek:

sam.x

Well done to you for sticking to your guns. Unfortunately, and I know this goes against the grain for normal honest law-abiding people but the only way to fight HMRC is to play them at their own game and use the kind of tactics that you describe above. I've done battle on the phone in the past trying to speak to a manager and did manage to eventually get a return phone call but I wasn't as successful as you.

It is horrific that their debt recovery [STRIKE]thugs[/STRIKE] team are prepared to breach the Human Rights Act (ie the right to privacy and family life), aswell as the Data Protection Act and Client Confidentiality.

I suggest that you IMMEDIATELY contact your MP with this information and ask them to investigate the legality of this on your behalf. You can find your MPs contact details at www.theyworkforyou.com For your sake I hope your MP is not labour but even if they are they should still pursue this for you although you may have to mention to them that you are on the verge of going to the Press if you don't get any explanations or action. Your trump card is the threat of publicity as the govt can't afford any more negative publicity at the moment so even if you don't want or intend to go public, you can still use the threat of it. I do know of someone who went to the press and was able to remain anonymous and strangely enough, her OP was written off within about a week! Feel free to PM me if you want more info about how to do this.

You should also write a letter of complaint about this to Richard Summersgill (top dog of Tax Credits) and clearly put at the bottom of the complaints letter that you are copying it to your MP, and to Jane Kennedy, the Treasury Minister in charge of Tax Credits. You might aswell copy it to Gordon Brown too although you will only get a standard response to it from one of his underlings saying that he is passing it to the Treasury to investigate. You may want to query in your letter which piece of legislation allows HMRC to breach your Human Rights and the Data Prot act.

In the meantime I would keep detailed records of all dealings with the Helpline and Debt Recovery - you may even wish to tell the Helpline that you are recording your calls (even if you're not) as you are concerned about being given incorrect information. Also, get a request in to the Data Protection Unit for all the information, including recordings of calls, held about you.

Unfortunately, it is often the case that those people who kick up the most fuss and who threaten publicity etc are the ones who get their OPs written off. It is really tough having to do this and it takes alot of time and energy and determination to win but it can be done.

Hang on in there and keep fighting. xx

savvy

From the latest newsletter from the Tax Credit Casualties Forum;

Thanks to a great article that was released by the LITRG last week, we have become aware of the latest scandalous practice to hit Tax Credit claimants. In a nutshell, if you submit any change-of-circumstances (CoC's) that cause your Tax Credit award to be reduced, it is now virtually certain that you will end up with an overpayment. Why? In the last version of COP26, HMRC introduced the '30 day rule', which effectively states that, even if a claimant informs HMRC of changes of circumstances as soon as they happen, the Tax Credit Office can take up to 30 days to process those changes and any overpayments that are caused by the delay in processing are recoverable. Now, just about every organisation that offers help and guidance to claimants of Tax Credits thought that this was very unfair - but were told by HMRC that the majority of CoC's were processed within the first 48 hours.


It seems far too much of a coincidence that CoC's are now taking ..... how long to be processed? Yes, you've guessed it, around 30 days!! And that means if your award goes down because of a change, you get an overpayment. A few claimants might not be bothered, but to the most vulnerable majority, it means disaster, stress, pain and more. It also means that anyone and everyone, even if they do everything right and HMRC don't cause it by their mistakes, is virtually assured of an overpayment if their CoC's mean that their award is reduced.


Enough is enough! This is simply the last straw, and everyone who is reading this can easily help to get the whole Tax Credit farce stopped very quickly. How? Read on ...
All we are asking you to do is forward this newsletter to everyone in your e-mail address book. They will probably thank you for it! Just click 'Forward', add everyone in your address book to the 'To:' box, type something like 'Does this affect you?' in the subject line, type a little message like 'Thought you needed to see this! It affects everyone who claims Tax Credits' . Then click send.


If you're reading this because it's been forwarded to you by a friend, please forward it to everyone in your address book too. Even if you've never had an overpayment, because at some time in the future you probably will. Even if you don't claim Tax Credits, many of your contacts probably do. Read the horror stories on our website www.TaxCC.org . How would you cope if you suddenly got a bill from the Government for £3,000 or £9,000 or £26,000? Would that change your life??
This 'financial rape' of good, decent people, wholly approved by the Government, has to stop, and it has to stop NOW! The only way that we are going to achieve that is by sheer volume of pressure, and that takes numbers. So, please forward this to everyone - it's easy to do. We'll do the rest. Thank you.


Debt Recovery
We are becoming very concerned about the number of people who are being visited by the Debt Recovery Department and pressured into agreeing to make payments in order to stave off the threat of legal action.
In many cases, it would seem that there has been no previous notification of an overpayment, possibly because HMRC have sent letters to the wrong address, and this is the first that people know about an alleged overpayment.
Being put on the spot, and not being informed that they are allowed to dispute or appeal the alleged overpayment is resulting in people accepting the overpayment without being fully informed of their rights, and in some cases being bullied into making repayments or repayment agreements.
This practice is not only against HMRC’s own guidelines, but the legalities are extremely dubious. Furthermore, both Gordon Brown and Jane Kennedy have publicly stated repeatedly that court action is a last resort, only happening once all reasonable steps have been taken for recovery. Increasingly, we believe that people are being harassed by the Debt Recovery Dept in the very first instance.
If this has happened to you please do let us know immediately by e-mailing paula@taxcc.org . As well as recording the fact that this happening, we will help you submit a dispute or appeal which will suspend all recovery action temporarily. Then you can request the information you need to investigate the reason for the alleged overpayment, and fight your case if you feel that the overpayment has arisen as a result of HMRC errors, incompetence or negligence.

savvy

kevsam65 wrote: »

Just an update following my visit.

Hi sam
I can NOT reiterate whitevanwoman enough, that it is VITAL that you keep a record, AND any phone bills paper or online, that proves you have made calls. I would go so far as to record the conversation as well!

As you may have read about my case, the phone call that proves they told me the wrong information has been consistently denied by HMRC as ever happening. They insist I only made one call that day..............I didn't, I made 2 and the second one is the one that told me the wrong thing to do!! Luckily I still have the phone bill fromm 2002 so I am now in dispute with the ICO over this with HMRC.

As a result of this, I refuse EVER to speak by phone and deal with them in writing.....................something I think everybody should do And with the advent of these 'visits', I would personally record all conversations with them too!!!! It may sound paranoid..........................but it's the only protection you have at the end of the day!

mom01

I am going to be asked to pay back two lots of money one from 2yrs ago £700 because p60 figures were more than we had estimated and the other of £500 from when I lost my job and split with my husband last year. I can't afford this debt, I'm now a single mum on benefits and every penny I get is used up on life. I'm furious that I was given money I should never have received and feel like I'm being penalised by Tax Credit office for hitting on hard times. It doesn't make sense that they have the right to do this to people, I have been so worried I feel ill. They should not be allowed to estimate your money for the year, are we supposed to put it away just incase they ask for it back?

mom01

Just wondered does anyone think it's worth me disputing this or am I just going to have to pay? I have asked for a full breakdown but to be honest don't really have a clue what I'm doing and haven't heard anything yet anyway. The amounts are not as big as some peoples but to me they are huge and I wish I'd never claimed.
Any support much appreciated, thanks.